Bombs? Really?

[Tombs]

Why?

Who decides it's a terrorist?

Given that the vast majority of the NG is untrained and unversed in domestic law enforcement, what is "better" about this approach?

Several guys in my office are also currently reservists of some stripe, both officers and NCOs. If they change hats, is it cool if they use the EOD robot with a bomb on it?

Beyond that, people should be made aware of the fact that police forces are far better trained than the National Guard.

 

[printcraft]

He (dead *******) said he had bombs. So, level playing field. **** him.

 

[mrjarrell]

Exactly. There's been no abuse of this particular modality.

But, as I said up-thread, this was a truly unique situation. And, as further evidence of having learned the MOVE lesson, DPD didn't go overboard with the boom sticks. Used the right amount to get the job done.

You're arguing there is a "right amount" of explosives to use against people. Those of us against this particular tactic are saying there is NO "right amount" of bomb to use against people, even a murderer. There was nothing unique about this situation. It was a standoff. Happens more often than we like to think of. The only different factor in it was who the victims of this murderers actions were. Did the Orlando PD blow up the shooter at Pulse? He killed a lot more people. But they didn't blow him up. Same for hundreds of other crimes and criminals. This looks like a bunch of amped up cowboys out for an action movie result.

 

[T.Lex]

How so? I'm not seeing many new developments. I think we're seeing some changes in tactics that distance the police of today from Officer Friendly of yesteryear, but the majority of complaints I see about militarization are concerning police equipment which, functionally, hasn't changed a lot in the last 30 years.

I don't necessarily disagree with the comment about tactics changing rather than equipment, but I've also said that those tactics are becoming more military-ish. Now, we have the expectation that the first officers responding will engage an active shooter. The one Dallas officer at the pillar was doing exactly that (or so it looked to me).

In that sense, military style training to leverage the military style weapons that are now customary has increased the militarization factor. IMHO.

 

[Dead Duck]

Interesting to see INGO so in support of police militarization.

Police Militarization? I'm saving up for a MRAP, myself.
Hell If I had the money, I'd already have a tank division.

 

[T.Lex]

You're arguing there is a "right amount" of explosives to use against people.

There is, and you know it. The MOVE incident was "too much."

Those of us against this particular tactic are saying there is NO "right amount" of bomb to use against people, even a murderer. There was nothing unique about this situation. It was a standoff. Happens more often than we like to think of. The only different factor in it was who the victims of this murderers actions were.

I disagree. The employment of the victims was not the difference. The difference was that they had a perpetrator who had the means and proven the motivation to go out shooting at those surrounding him.

From what I can tell, most standoffs involve people without the means or motivation to do something like that. I am open to you educating me, though.

And, on a related note, if they'd sent the SWAT assault troops in to get him and they shot him, would that be different?

 

[Woobie]

Boo ****ing hoo. I bet you don't have a problem with the cops being murdered with a rifle.

Ever stop to think you're hurting your own cause?

I don't have a philosophical objection to police having or using this stuff. But we shouldn't be finding out about it after the fact. These debates need to be had beforehand. I detest the arrogance of government agencies asking for forgiveness rather than permission. And yes, they need our permission.

Anyhoo, it's all fun and games until someone throws a grenade in a crib....

 

[BogWalker]

I don't necessarily disagree with the comment about tactics changing rather than equipment, but I've also said that those tactics are becoming more military-ish. Now, we have the expectation that the first officers responding will engage an active shooter. The one Dallas officer at the pillar was doing exactly that (or so it looked to me).

In that sense, military style training to leverage the military style weapons that are now customary has increased the militarization factor. IMHO.

I can agree tactics wise. When it comes to firearms and other "combat" training police departments have definitely been taking cues from the military. I've just noticed that, in the majority of anti-militarization arguments I've seen, the focus is on the police equipment which really isn't all that different than it was years ago.

People are saying SWAT should have handled it when they're arguably the most militarized segment of police forces there are.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Beyond that, people should be made aware of the fact that police forces are far better trained than the National Guard.

In their lane, absolutely. I was a Combat Engineer in the Army. We were the guys who made things explode. I knew lots of things about making things explode. I knew nothing about law enforcement. I'm still trying to see why it's better if PFC Snuffy blows this dude up than if PTL Snuffy does.

I've been away from the military for quite a while, but when I was contracting even the MPs often weren't really MPs. They were artillery guys or something that got a quick 3 week course and were reclassed.

 

[mrjarrell]

There is, and you know it. The MOVE incident was "too much."


I disagree. The employment of the victims was not the difference. The difference was that they had a perpetrator who had the means and proven the motivation to go out shooting at those surrounding him.

From what I can tell, most standoffs involve people without the means or motivation to do something like that. I am open to you educating me, though.

And, on a related note, if they'd sent the SWAT assault troops in to get him and they shot him, would that be different?

Armed standoffs happen all the time, a simple Google search of the news will show you that. And sending in the SWAT team to do their thing would have been different, and acceptable. This event crossed a line, all we can do is hope that no other departments decide it's a best practice.

 

[rhino]

Beyond that, people should be made aware of the fact that police forces are far better trained than the National Guard.

Doesn't that depend on the MOS of the National Guard troops?

There are a significant number of National Guard guys with legit SF tabs who blew-up a lot of stuff in Iraq and Afghanistan. I suspect they're pretty well trained at using explosives.

 

[Tombs]

Doesn't that depend on the MOS of the National Guard troops?

There are a significant number of National Guard guys with legit SF tabs who blew-up a lot of stuff in Iraq and Afghanistan. I suspect they're pretty well trained at using explosives.

Are you referring to NGs who were in another branch at some point in their life or people who have only ever been in the NG?

If you're referring to people who have been in other branches, then that's a bit dishonest. Those cops could have been ex-SF as well.

 

[T.Lex]

Armed standoffs happen all the time, a simple Google search of the news will show you that.

And not a single one of them was like this one. At least not that I've heard of.

And sending in the SWAT team to do their thing would have been different, and acceptable.

SWAT did their thing. Or are you saying that endangering the human SWAT officers by using one of them to carry a bomb or a gun would've been better? Shooting a bullet or handing the guy a grenade isn't really a difference. (Yes, we both know it wasn't a grenade.)

This event crossed a line, all we can do is hope that no other departments decide it's a best practice.

But that line is not new, whether they crossed it or not. No one thinks or will think that this is a general best practice. They haven't for 30 years.

I also think this is a gray area, when it comes to modality. I can see people's discontent with this incident - perhaps it was near the line or in the gray area. For me, it was enough on the right side that I'm not worried about it.

I do trust that INGO will be alert to abuse of this, though.

 

[halfmileharry]

So, what are we arguing about? How close we are to a slippery slope that we've avoided for 30 years?

For LEOs, a bomb is a tool, like a gun or a bulldozer or a coffee pot. Assess the situation and use the best tool for the job, as any professional should.

Cops should NEVER be allowed to have their own donut machine.
Militarized Cops? Hell, give my your phone # and I'll dial it instead of 911

 

[T.Lex]

Cops should NEVER be allowed to have their own donut machine.

Do you have a digital newsletter to which I can subscribe?

Militarized Cops? Hell, give my your phone # and I'll dial it instead of 911

Is that to me? It is more traditional to call a lawyer AFTER 911, but I supposed the order can be reversed when necessary.

 

[halfmileharry]

Do you have a digital newsletter to which I can subscribe?


Is that to me? It is more traditional to call a lawyer AFTER 911, but I supposed the order can be reversed when necessary.

Naw, I screwed up the copy/paste. It was meant to have been a post or two above yours. Apologies.

 

[TangoSierraEcho]

They shouldn't be authorized to use anything that a standard citizen can't legally use for self defense as a means to carry out deadly force.

I can't speak for everyone but for me, if I'm going into a fight I'd much rather have any advantage I can get

On another note: A Robot was used to kill a human, doesn't that violate one of the three laws of robotics?

So when does Skynet come on-line?

 

[T.Lex]

Naw, I screwed up the copy/paste. It was meant to have been a post or two above yours. Apologies.

No worries. The internet can be tricky.

 

[halfmileharry]

No worries. The internet can be tricky.

..and I'm watching the NFL channel, texting, driving, and doing INGO all at the same time.
I'm training for the SHTF to come.

 

[Leadeye]

Trouble with this trick is that it's only good once. Now the crazy people will shoot at the robots assuming they have a grenade attached somewhere.