Beyond Skills: Why Enthusiasm Matters in Pistol Mounted Optic Adoption

[cedartop]

There is a really good article in the January edition of the Rangemaster newsletter on many things people ask about regarding red dots on carry pistols. Yes, it is more than a paragraph long but I think it is worth the read. I pretty much echo most of what the author says.

January Rangemaster Newsletter

 

[Twangbanger]

using the "popcorn" emoji, because they don't have one for "Preparation-H."

 

[cedartop]

using the "popcorn" emoji, because they don't have one for "Preparation-H."

If you read it, I would be interested in hearing what you disagree with. My thoughts on the matter have changed over time and experience, as they have with most things gun related.

 

[92FSTech]

It's a good read, and he makes his point well. It also informs a discussion that I recently had on another board. I also knew exactly where he was going at the beginning when he mentioned the position of the sun...stupid ghost dots! Thanks for posting this.

 

[Route 45]

"Due to some fantastic marketing and promotion, many unsuspecting consumers have been led to believe that it's as simple as mounting a red dot on their pistol and heading out into the world, better prepared to defend themselves than before."

Yep. And the 90% of people who buy a red dot for their pistol and squeeze off a few slow-fire shots at the range and are amazed at their newfound accuracy at 7 yards are the same ones saying "the future is now, old man" regarding red dots. You want to mount a red dot and do the training necessary to gain proficiency and get the perfect presentation every time (on the one-way range, of course), knock yourself out. I'm betting that the number of actual civilian self defense shootings with a pistol where a red dot made any difference in outcome is pretty small. Like...nearly non-existent small.

But none of that matters. Gun and optic manufacturers have a new revenue stream. Always follow the money.

 

[DadSmith]

"Due to some fantastic marketing and promotion, many unsuspecting consumers have been led to believe that it's as simple as mounting a red dot on their pistol and heading out into the world, better prepared to defend themselves than before."

Yep. And the 90% of people who buy a red dot for their pistol and squeeze off a few slow-fire shots at the range and are amazed at their newfound accuracy at 7 yards are the same ones saying "the future is now, old man" regarding red dots. You want to mount a red dot and do the training necessary to gain proficiency and get the perfect presentation every time (on the one-way range, of course), knock yourself out. I'm betting that the number of actual civilian self defense shootings with a pistol where a red dot made any difference in outcome is pretty small. Like...nearly non-existent small.

But none of that matters. Gun and optic manufacturers have a new revenue stream. Always follow the money.

I've been practicing with my rds on my Dagger when it's cold out.
I'm getting better at draw and bringing the rds on target, but still a long way to go to get efficient, and where I'm comfortable using a rds for my edc.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've been pretty luke warm on pistol optics and for some of the reasons mentioned, as well as some not. I'm seldom on the forefront of any change, though. I've got two RDS equipped Glocks, both direct milled, and haven't tried to use any of the modular systems due to concerns as brought up in the article.

I do think they have a place in law enforcement. The ability to be target focused while still making good hits has a lot of value in the 'managing people at gunpoint' space that LE does much more often then shooting people. I'm much less convinced of the value on a walking around off duty gun, especially for someone unwilling to work their index to near perfection.

 

[Route 45]

I'm much less convinced of the value on a walking around off duty gun, especially for someone unwilling to work their index to near perfection.

Lots of real gunfight videos on the internet. Not any that I can recall with picture perfect indexing. Lots with point shooting at 5-10 feet or flash sight pictures at best.

 

[2tonic]

When I saw a thread title about enthusiasm counting more than skill, this was not the subject I thought you were discussing.

 

[Tomahawkman]

Ive been shooting pistol optics on 1 or more handguns for about 7 years now, mostly Glocks and 2011s. Recently got my department to adopt MOS glocks as well as Staccatos and allow the use of red dots. Every Officer that opted to get an optic has noticed significant increase to their shooting ability. While there is a learning curve, the value it has provided those that I have trained on them is most definitely worth any of the accompanying downsides.

Additionally I've got time behind most of the market options for pistol mounted dots, and it has become clearly apparent to me that closed emitter optics like the 509T, Steiner MPS, Aimpoint Acro are the way to go and I do not foresee a reason I will purchase any more open emitter options going forward. They seem to be less effected by bright sun from my experience. The open emitter options on lots of occasions I get a reflection of the actual emitter in the glass at times that can wash out the dot. Its not always consistent but it happens far less with my Acro to my RMRs

 

[Skip]

I need to read the article, and, I will. I can only add my experience to transitioning to a MRDS for CCW.
I’ve been a shooter for a long time. I’m 67 now and my eyesight is not what it used to be. I wear glasses with trifocals now and “end of arm focus” is relegated to my trifocal part of my glasses. It’s a mighty small window.
My firearm training doesn’t allow for poorly aimed shots. Just me. On a flat range, regardless of distance, I’m going for slow fire, one hole groups. The MRDS gives me that accuracy without tilting my head a special way to get the front sight in focus in my trifocals.
At first, 5-6 years ago, I had a ton of issues “finding the dot”. What I found was: my draw stroke muscle memory needed help. Drawing from the holster to first shot went from 2+ seconds (clearing cover garment always) to 1.15-1.5 seconds, depending on the day.
So, I focused on making that happen consistently. P. S. I’m a 3 o’clock carry kinda guy too.
I also had to change my standard for accuracy. At 7 yards, 2” groups are okay. MOA to MOBG (minute of bad guy).
If you don’t have trigger control to start with, a MRDS isn’t the end all be all. Like a laser.
Pressing the trigger without moving the sights is still paramount.
I have “electrician glasses” with trifocals at the top of the lenses too, and my front sight is easy to come into focus but I can’t wear them all the time. It’s like looking through a paper towel tube all day long.

The real truth of the matter, things we add to our CCW will never compensate for poor fundamentals. Not a compensator, a MRDS, not a “gas pedal”, not a laser, none of it. At some point a shooter has to learn the basics.

 

[92FSTech]

Lots of real gunfight videos on the internet. Not any that I can recall with picture perfect indexing. Lots with point shooting at 5-10 feet or flash sight pictures at best.

There's definite value to putting in the time and effort towards developing a picture-perfect index...even if it doesn't play out perfectly in your real-world event you're at least likely to see at least some degree of benefit from the developed presentation. I think the point @BehindBlueI's is making is that someone who is unwilling to put in the practice time to develop that index is unlikely to get any benefit from an optic over just sticking with iron sights.

Every Officer that opted to get an optic has noticed significant increase to their shooting ability. While there is a learning curve, the value it has provided those that I have trained on them is most definitely worth any of the accompanying downsides.

I've seen similar results, but I'm curious...do you think the improvement is the result of the optic itself, or does it have more to do with the attitude of the officers who by simply being willing to put the time in to train on it are further developing thier skills? And the ones who are opting to go to the dot...were they your better shooters to start with, or guys who were just getting by? I think I've seen improvement across the board, but we also did a transition course so everybody got an extra dose of live-fire training that they don't normally get, so I'm waiting to see how much of that improvement sticks around over the long term. I'm confident that the guys who are willing to keep putting in the work will continue to show improvement, but I'm curious to see what will happen with those who don't.

Additionally I've got time behind most of the market options for pistol mounted dots, and it has become clearly apparent to me that closed emitter optics like the 509T, Steiner MPS, Aimpoint Acro are the way to go and I do not foresee a reason I will purchase any more open emitter options going forward. They seem to be less effected by bright sun from my experience. The open emitter options on lots of occasions I get a reflection of the actual emitter in the glass at times that can wash out the dot. Its not always consistent but it happens far less with my Acro to my RMRs

Thanks for this observation. I've not had a chance to play with a closed-emitter dot yet, but one of my greatest concerns about our open emitter setup is the "ghost dots" under glare. I can prevent or address most of the reliability concerns with an open emitter optic, but dealing with a false aiming point under certain conditions is a huge problem. I've just recently started thinking through some strategies to train for that, but if the closed-emitter designs make it less of an issue I want to look at those as well.

 

[Skip]

There is a really good article in the January edition of the Rangemaster newsletter on many things people ask about regarding red dots on carry pistols. Yes, it is more than a paragraph long but I think it is worth the read. I pretty much echo most of what the author says.

January Rangemaster Newsletter

Thanks for the link too. Gonna shoot some of those monthly drills.

 

[Skip]

Every Officer that opted to get an optic has noticed significant increase to their shooting ability.

I think this can also be seen in USMC rifle qualification scores once the ACOG was adopted. They moved scoring brackets up because scores were increasing across the board, from what I’ve been told.

My only question would be this though: Did folks just start getting better scores or did they actually shoot better? Qualifications are one thing, shooting scenario drills may be different. I’d like to hear your opinion on that.

 

[Skip]

If you read it, I would be interested in hearing what you disagree with. My thoughts on the matter have changed over time and experience, as they have with most things gun related.

I for one would like to hear your “evolution” on the matter.

 

[cedartop]

Lots of real gunfight videos on the internet. Not any that I can recall with picture perfect indexing. Lots with point shooting at 5-10 feet or flash sight pictures at best.

Lots of missing as well. There are starting to be some videos out there using red dots. What we can't know of course is what the operator of the dot gun is seeing, sorta like the old did you use your sights in a gunfight argument.

Of course it won't happen but I would love for anyone carrying a dot gun to use them in competition and/or FOF training with it. Especially if being used as a duty weapon.

 

[firecadet613]

Lots of missing as well. There are starting to be some videos out there using red dots. What we can't know of course is what the operator of the dot gun is seeing, sorta like the old did you use your sights in a gunfight argument.

Of course it won't happen but I would love for anyone carrying a dot gun to use them in competition and/or FOF training with it. Especially if being used as a duty weapon.

Active Self Protection on YouTube has plenty of videos, and they add two per day. Not sure if I've seen any with a red dot in use.

 

[cedartop]

I for one would like to hear your “evolution” on the matter.

I started carrying a slide mounted RMR on a G19 on late 2009. Took my first red dot pistol instructor class in 2010. That may not seem like that long ago to the older among us, but let me tell you, a lot has happened since then. It is very humorous for me to see a lot of big name instructors who absolutely trashed the idea in the early days now making their living off of being RDS instructors. Very few people in those early days had an open mind on the matter when I went to classes.

In the beginning a lot of us believed the old saw about red dots being slow up close. We just weren't going about it correctly. Some of this was learning as we went. Kelly McCaan was really the only guy who had been talking about this up to that point. There wasn't a ton of carry over from the open competition shooters because of the hardware being so different. Naturally there was a lot of learning going on. I don't think even those of us who were on board early could have predicted how fast this was going to happen. It had happened with rifles already, but as most of us know, that is different mainly because of more points of easily repeatable contact.

I have went from being a PMO evangelist to more of an agnostic. I actually worry a little about so many police departments switching to them. I have been an officer and helped train officers, the majority don't take their firearms training seriously. About the only time they shoot is department quals. Those are the ones I worry about, not the ones who are enthusiasts. Rationally though, they shouldn't be any worse off with an RDS on their gun than without, so there is that.

I have found if you aren't changing your mind about things, you aren't learning. Do I think RDS are a fad? No, but I don't clearly see what the road forward looks like.

 

[Skip]

I have found if you aren't changing your mind about things, you aren't learning. Do I think RDS are a fad? No,

How true THAT is! I teethed on a S&W revolver (just kidding), moved to a 1911 (which I now hate, don’t judge me) on to the BHP (which I love) and made the comment in the middle 2000’s, “If it ain’t steel, it ain’t getting my feel”……then, son #2 got hired on at the Sheriff’s Department. They carried a Glock 22 at the time. He said: “Dad, I know what you’ve said about plastic guns but, you need to shoot one of these!” Suffice it to say, I’m squarely in the “Tactical Tupperware” crowd now. Glock Gen 3 clones or Sig P320/P365’s are my most used now.
I had a different journey to the MRDS transition though, I got old! Hahahaha
No glasses until 40 and now at 67, I have trifocals. My eyesight used to be really good, what most folks could see well at 15 feet, I could still see perfectly at 20 and changing focus from close to far was not an issue at all.

I’m a huge proponent for older shooters, IF they are willing to learn, of using the MRDS for that reason.

Really appreciate your response too. Pretty enlightening about some officers not being “gun enthusiasts”. I’ve seen that as well. I always laugh when I watch Cops and they come up against a pistol they don’t know anything about and try to clear them…..hilariously sad….

Thanks for this post…..

 

[jwamplerusa]

Active Self Protection on YouTube has plenty of videos, and they add two per day. Not sure if I've seen any with a red dot in use.

Many of the LEO videos have an RDS in use.

A recent one was a single shot stop at 25 yards from a wounded officer. Among the comments were the accuracy and margin the RDS provided at 25 yds under duress.

I have a 5 in M&P with a Holosun 509T, and a M&P 4 in compact with a Leopold Delta Point Micro.

Both are closed emitter optics. Both extend the range at which I am acceptably accurate.

The DPM is however a noticably more perishable skill due to small apperture size. I have been fighting tennis elbow, and the reduction of grip strength and round count have noticably degraded my skill level (such as it is).