Bank robbers nabbed

[pinhead56]

Did anyone else see the picture in Thurs (10-30) Indy Star, Metro section front page? A news photographer happened to be riding with some IMPD officers when the call came in about a bank robbery. Long story short... the photographer caught some awesome pictures of our city's finest in action. The good news is that the bad guys were caught, (one shot himself in the head rather than deal with consequences) but the picture in the paper shows one cop kneeling on a BG looking away while pointing his pistol at his partner's butt!
Just goes to show, especially under stress that if you have to use your weapon, you have to be careful about where it's pointed! ...in any case, kudos to IMPD!

 

[PapaScout]

Nope, I don't get the paper but I'm glad the nasties were caught.

Minor thread dev.: Stress is weird. My boss has recommended a book called 'Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking' but I have yet to read it. It delves into peoples reactions to situations and how the mind works under stress.

 

[Shay]

I saved the picture from the Indy Star site today. I'll use it as an example for future classes.

lack of adequate, real-world training + stress = unsafe gun handling

 

[JimFloyd]

Nope, I don't get the paper but I'm glad the nasties were caught.

Minor thread dev.: Stress is weird. My boss has recommended a book called 'Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking' but I have yet to read it. It delves into peoples reactions to situations and how the mind works under stress.

Blink is a very interesting read. Which gets me thinking that, since I am an avid reader (usually 3-6 books per week), and perhaps other members here are as well, should we consider starting a thread discussing what we have read?

Regards,

Jim

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Did anyone else see the picture in Thurs (10-30) Indy Star, Metro section front page? A news photographer happened to be riding with some IMPD officers when the call came in about a bank robbery. Long story short... the photographer caught some awesome pictures of our city's finest in action. The good news is that the bad guys were caught, (one shot himself in the head rather than deal with consequences) but the picture in the paper shows one cop kneeling on a BG looking away while pointing his pistol at his partner's butt!
Just goes to show, especially under stress that if you have to use your weapon, you have to be careful about where it's pointed! ...in any case, kudos to IMPD!

I didn't see THAT picture...just the "crash as it happened" shot.

But, please keep in mind that depending on the lense used and the distance of the photographer from the scene, things can get quite compressed. In using telephoto, the far background and the near foreground will appear much closer than they are in actuality.

It's possible that this may have been the case with that particular photo you mentioned above... It may LOOK like a pistol was pointed at a fellow officer when, in fact, that's just an effect of the lens.

-J-

 

[Metro 40]

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[indyjoe]

But, please keep in mind that depending on the lense used and the distance of the photographer from the scene, things can get quite compressed. In using telephoto, the far background and the near foreground will appear much closer than they are in actuality.

I am an experienced photographer and I understand what you are saying, but do not think it is the case here. The trees and cars in the distance are not compressed that much. I would put the focal length around 100mm. Definitely less than 200mm. This is just poor muzzle control.

In the other picture, the officer is not pointing his pistol at the officer, it\'s pointed at the car.

It is pointing at the other officers left leg. With proper finger indexing, this is not an issue. Many entry teams have to point at those in front of them, but do not index until pulling off and going onto target. The point here is not to blame the officer, just to show how easy it is to get the muzzle aiming at something it should not under duress. That is why multiple piece of safety is important.

 

[Metro 40]

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[Fenway]

Looks like a very fluid, high stress situation and during the course of this incident a muzzle crossed someone. I'd like to think I wouldn't do that.. But I've never chased bank robbers and pulled them out of cars with guns drawn and had a photograper snapping his or her ass off behind me.

 

[Metro 40]

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[Jackson]

I'm not any kind of expert on tactics or training, but I looked at the pictures and will comment anyway...

From the angle the picture was taken, I think it's hard to tell exactly where the gun is pointed. Could be the leg, could be the car. It also seems possible to me that the officer that is standing (Officer 1) stepped in front of the kneeling officer's (Officer 2) gun as Officer 2 turned to yell something at someone else.

Either way, it looks like a situation that was moving at a very fast pace and given the pace of the situation and the stress, I doubt if most anyone here critiquing it could have done much better, regardless of training.

 

[indyjoe]

My point is that the suggestion that the picture is evidence of inadequate training is pure BS. The officers engaged in a high speed pursuit of armed bank robbers, which ended in a violent crash and the suicide of one of the suspects. Under this extremely high-stress REAL WORLD situation, the officers drew their weapons and safely took the other 2 suspects into custody.

I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. I do not think training can keep from occasionally sweeping a muzzle in situations like this. I fully agree. I do not think this picture shows poor training. It shows that despite training, realize that it can still happen. This is why both muzzle control AND trigger control are important. Trigger control should be instinctual. Off target, off trigger. On target, on trigger.

 

[indyninja]

good job metro!

 

[Metro 40]

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[Indy_Guy_77]

Ok...in the next-to-last photo in the photo series... The front passenger windo of the Buick appears to be, um.... dirty.

Think that's "dirt" from the inside or from the outside?

-J-

 

[pinhead56]

Here is the gallery of pics from the Star:

Bank robbery chase ends in crash | IndyStar.com gallery | The Indianapolis Star

In one picture, before apprehension is made, you can clearly see the thinner officer with his finger properly indexed along the trigger guard, just as we are trained. In the other picture, the officer is not pointing his pistol at the officer, it's pointed at the car.

The firearms training provided by the range staff at IMPD is well thought out, and includes reality based scenarios and weapon safety. It certainly is adequate, and many officers who have been in "real world" police action shootings have praised the range staff for drilling safety and tactics into their heads. I've heard the comments about how their training took over when a lethal force situation presented itself.

There are a wide variety of excellent training methods and scenarios, some induce quite a bit of stress. But none can induce the stress of a real-world lethal force encounter. Until you've actually pointed your firearm at a man and contemplated killing him to save your own life, you don't have a clue what stress is.

I also looked at the website photos and they may be stills taken from video. If that is the case, it's clear that one officer is taking care of one 'perp' while another was running towards the car. I also realize that the photo angle is important. I'm just glad they were captured. It's apparent that chaos reigns in cases like that and in-experienced folks may not respond as well as these officers. I just noticed that the picture they chose for the paper, is a little scary for the officer approaching the car, that's all.
Overall... good job IMPD!

 

[pinhead56]

Ok...in the next-to-last photo in the photo series... The front passenger windo of the Buick appears to be, um.... dirty.

Think that's "dirt" from the inside or from the outside?

-J-

I'm betting inside!