Anybody a big fan of the .40?

[BugI02]

Muzzle Energy is not a reliable indication of wounding potential, particularly in handguns. It's easy to market to, though.

Now do barrier penetration, esp. raked windshield

 

[BugI02]

Considering power factor between the common service caliber cartridges means almost nothing in actual performance on the street, I guess I am missing your point.

The point is peeps going to heavier (and slower) 9mm pills would do better to consider a different caliber if more delivered energy is what they seek

And within that matrix, 40 is a viable contender, as is 357 sig

Edit: power factor is just a simple stand in for muzzle energy that is easier to calculate

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Now do barrier penetration, esp. raked windshield

Specifically with the HSTs I mentioned, the 9mm penetrates slightly more than the .40 in sheet metal testing, the .40 slightly more in auto glass, IIRC.

Now show me a department that's had worse outcomes after switching from any modern duty caliber to any other modern duty caliber. They all have slight edges over the others in certain aspects, and all therefore outdone by other options in other aspects. If you happen to know you'll need to shoot through glass today but not a door, awesome, you can tailor your load. Else, just pick a common duty caliber, buy quality cartridges for it, and worry not.

The point is peeps going to heavier (and slower) 9mm pills would do better to consider a different caliber if more delivered energy is what they seek

I'm not sure what "delivered energy" is. Handgun bullets wound by getting to the important gibbly bits and disrupting them. I'll pre-empt the "I believe in physics" arguments with the "also believe in biology" argument. Energy tells you how much work is available, it doesn't tell you what that work is. The bullet deforming is work being performed, etc. All the modern bullets are "tuned" to the FBI specs because they want to sell to organizations that use FBI specs. More energy, harder bullet, harder to deform, requires more energy...

 

[Brad69]

.40 kinda Dead for Polize work!

Departments are shedding them like they have COVID on em. Good for us people lot‘s of trade in’s cheap.

As usual BBI is right IMO.

 

[eldirector]

I'll go back to some of my initial reasoning for a .40 daily carry.

A reasonable amount of energy in each round, that (with the proper round construction) dumps all of that energy in the target. Maintains that amount of energy even in a carry-friendly subcompact. Reasonable capacity, even in a subcompact. Still concealable. Something I can still get good hits with. Something that is fairly easy to find, even during shortages. Can be reloaded.

Yes, there are several calibers that would check the above. Probably includes 9mm on the low end, .357 Sig, and .40 S&W. .45 Auto starts really reducing capacity, even in a full-sized handgun. I consider .380 a little to low-energy (personal opinion). I excluded revolver calibers, and anything less popular.

Handguns, especially concealable, are ALWAYS a compromise. NO handgun round really stacks up to a similar round in a rifle.

 

[BugI02]

I'm not sure what "delivered energy" is. Handgun bullets wound by getting to the important gibbly bits and disrupting them. I'll pre-empt the "I believe in physics" arguments with the "also believe in biology" argument. Energy tells you how much work is available, it doesn't tell you what that work is. The bullet deforming is work being performed, etc. All the modern bullets are "tuned" to the FBI specs because they want to sell to organizations that use FBI specs. More energy, harder bullet, harder to deform, requires more energy...

Recalling that I do not advocate for heavier 9mm pills over simply heavier standard loadings for different calibers, perhaps you have an alternate explanation for their adoption by some shooters?

If it isn't believed that a heavier bullet delivers something worthwhile then why go there, as it costs something in muzzle velocity, esp in short barreled micros and compacts. If it delivers nothing extra, then is that not also an argument in favor of a larger diameter bullet. I certainly may be totally wrong about why peeps are seeking heavier bullets in 9mm, but I would need some data that backs that up

If, instead, they are looking for more energy available at impact I stand by my opinions. What I have read influences me to prefer supersonic for hollow point expansion reliability over subsonic or near sonic, and the preference for HPs itself seems indicative that larger diameter wound track is considered better

Edit: I think people are using muzzle energy as a stand in for energy available at impact, because without detailed ballistic performance information it is the easiest data to find for comparison. While different weight bullets will slow at different rates, for all intents and purposes at most realistic self defense ranges it will make no difference. The premise of the thread was seeking 40 fans, and I am one. I found a combination of firearm and round that shoots very well for me and that was what I was interested in. I have FNP 9s as well, but the 40 is what I carry when I carry full size

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Recalling that I do not advocate for heavier 9mm pills over simply heavier standard loadings for different calibers, perhaps you have an alternate explanation for their adoption by some shooters?

If it isn't believed that a heavier bullet delivers something worthwhile then why go there, as it costs something in muzzle velocity, esp in short barreled micros and compacts. If it delivers nothing extra, then is that not also an argument in favor of a larger diameter bullet. I certainly may be totally wrong about why peeps are seeking heavier bullets in 9mm, but I would need some data that backs that up

If, instead, they are looking for more energy available at impact I stand by my opinions. What I have read influences me to prefer supersonic for hollow point expansion reliability over subsonic or near sonic, and the preference for HPs itself seems indicative that larger diameter wound track is considered better

Edit: I think people are using muzzle energy as a stand in for energy available at impact, because without detailed ballistic performance information it is the easiest data to find for comparison. While different weight bullets will slow at different rates, for all intents and purposes at most realistic self defense ranges it will make no difference. The premise of the thread was seeking 40 fans, and I am one. I found a combination of firearm and round that shoots very well for me and that was what I was interested in. I have FNP 9s as well, but the 40 is what I carry when I carry full size

On my phone, so pardon typing. Light weight 9mm generally can't hold together at the speed needed for sufficient penetration with expanding. Either fragments from too fast or fails to penetrate enough if too slow. Can't pass all barrier tests. Fine for meat only. 124gr seems to be the floor with current design. Sectional density bad. Density/durability of lead bad. Denser is heavier. Heavier resists fragments better.

HP is larger tract plus cut vs push of ball. Wadcutter good for same reason. No push. 9mm expands more than 40 in some barrier, and vice versa. NBD. Big benefit is barrier blind. Without expansion, no brake. Only gas. Anything that won't expand can't both penetrate barrier AND not over penetrate with no barrier. Ironically, king .45 has most trouble. Need full size gun or +P to match 9mm or .40 in hard barrier or no expansion. .45 and .40 better with cheap ball. Less fragment.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

To expand a bit, you can't look at just one characteristic and then use it as a valid comparison without considering the other characteristics.

If we exaggerate the scale, this becomes easier to intuitively grasp. I have a 5-lb ball and a 10-lb ball. Which will do more damage to a watermelon 20' away when thrown at 50mph? If only weight matters, the 10-lb ball. What if I throw the 10-lb ball at 100mph? Twice as heavy, twice as fast, so it has to do more damage if weight, speed, and energy tell you all you need to know.

What if the first ball is hard cast lead and the second is styrofoam? Ah, now the lighter, slower "bullet" has the advantage. We know the foam ball will use more energy just to get to the target. It's sectional density sucks, it has trouble moving the air out of the way of it's path, it's too fragile if it does hit with any force left to stick together and penetrate, etc.

That's cheating you say, bullets are all metal. Maybe you said lead, but that's not true. Right, so let's use bullets.

Two .38s, both 158gr, both moving at 900fps, both unjacketed lead. Which penetrates more? Again, if weight/speed/energy are the full story than they'll penetrate the same. What if the first bullet is a HP-SWC cast in a very soft lead while the other is a hard cast WC? Both have the same energy, but the wounds will look completely different. The soft lead will tear and deform, using energy to do so. The hard cast will not deform and will use more energy penetrating.

So you start to see how bullets are 'tuned'. The weight is one factor, but things like the depth of the skivving on a jacket is as well. Energy is just the capacity to do work. That work includes a lot more than wounding, which is all that matters in this topic. It includes everything from spinning the bullet to stabilize it to moving the bullet forward to the target to deforming the bullet, etc.

 

[88E30M50]

This is interesting. I had never considered the energy needed to deform a bullet in whatever it’s expanding in. This is similar to parasitic loss of power in the drivetrain of a vehicle. Like the difference between 2 wheel drive and 4WD.

I had always considered the simple fact that whatever energy is dumped, is being dumped in whatever medium it hits. My basic rule of thumb has been that the more energy dumped into the target, the better as long as it does not over penetrate and lose the advantage of the energy passed out the back side of the target.

 

[tomcat13]

Don't "Hate"' the .40, just never got into it. Received a Colt Delta in 10mm as a Christmas gift when they 1st arrived on scene & Really enjoy that Caliber. For that reason alone, "Lil Bro" .40 didn't get my interest. My FIL has a P229 in .40 & loves it. I've shot it & have no complaints. Considered getting in to .40 a few times (reloadable with my 10mm Die set), just haven't-Yet! Never is a Long time. lol

 

[STEEL CORE]

I use .40 and carry .40, I just cannot find decent range .40 cheaply like before.
Rural King (AVON) last week $25 for 50 rds.
No fun trying to take one of my .40’s out for a range night.
I could switch to 9mm for range/practice but that ammo while easier to find now it seems, cost about the same as .40 for 50 rds.

 

[DadSmith]

I seen IIRC a federal cartridge company video on energy and stopping power awhile back. They said all handguns are basically limited to the same standards because they do not get the Shockwave of something going 2,000 fps or faster.

I wish I could find it again. I may be way off on several things. It was a very educational video.
Not in the video but I read elsewhere that a WFNGC bullet is a hard hitting bullet. Anything in its way gets cut and pushed forward, and is very devastating to the body.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This is interesting. I had never considered the energy needed to deform a bullet in whatever it’s expanding in. This is similar to parasitic loss of power in the drivetrain of a vehicle. Like the difference between 2 wheel drive and 4WD.

I had always considered the simple fact that whatever energy is dumped, is being dumped in whatever medium it hits. My basic rule of thumb has been that the more energy dumped into the target, the better as long as it does not over penetrate and lose the advantage of the energy passed out the back side of the target.

Handgun bullets wound by either cutting or crushing tissue. There is no 'energy dump' in any of the handgun bullets under discussion, or more precisely it does not equate to extra wounding except in certain organs. The elasticity of the majority of the human body means the temporary stretch cavity that may be seen in gel does not equate to a wound in a person. "Crushing" actually makes a tunnel that's narrower than the diameter as it pushes tissue out of the way and only crushes part of it. Hence why a wadcutter that cuts will make a wider tunnel than the equivalent diameter ball. Only until you get enough energy to exceed the elastic limits of the tissue does tearing/damage occur remotely, meaning tissue the bullet doesn't actually touch.

 

[snapping turtle]

I love my sig P229 40 cal. Seems perfect for me while shooting. Coming from both the revolver world and the 1911 world I am getting very used to the double /single action. Was the only hurdle I had to get over. Sometimes I take her to town as 357 sig when we go out fancy.

had a Glock 22 never liked it. grip angle mainly plus striker fired Sponge bob sqaurepants trigger.
my 9 mm 5906 I shoot well also maybe follow up shots are quicker.

guess I don’t worry about it at all. As long as it works for me and you get the rest of the world to choose 9mm. There will be ammo around for the 40.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I seen IIRC a federal cartridge company video on energy and stopping power awhile back. They said all handguns are basically limited to the same standards because they do not get the Shockwave of something going 2,000 fps or faster.

I wish I could find it again. I may be way off on several things. It was a very educational video.
Not in the video but I read elsewhere that a WFNGC bullet is a hard hitting bullet. Anything in its way gets cut and pushed forward, and is very devastating to the body.

This is essentially true, but note that is a rule of thumb and not a hard line. Essentially you have to overcome the elasticity of the tissue in question so that it tears and different tissues do have different thresholds. Skin and muscle is very elastic, and skin is surprisingly tough. Teeth are very inelastic, but incredibly hard and durable. Solid organs react differently than hollow organs.

To demonstrate the point of elasticity: If you take your thumb and push in on the skin on the back of your forearm, you've used energy to deform your skin and muscle underneath, but you have not overcome it's elasticity and it will snap back into place without injury when you let go. Apply the same amount of energy with a thumb tack and you'll create a small injury. The energy being concentrated on a much smaller area and with a device that won't deform (your thumb also smooshes as you smoosh your forearm, dividing the energy between them whereas the metal of the thumbtack won't smoosh) quickly overcomes the limits of the skin and underlying muscle. You still only get the crush/cut, though, and no remote wounding. You'd have to get the thumb tack really hustling to get remote wounding.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

guess I don’t worry about it at all.

Which is the right answer, and why I say I'm completely fine with any common duty caliber. Or even *shudder* revolvers...

You never hear much about how the .357 magnum is too light to work...

 

[mcapo]

When BBI releases his book series entitled, "Just the Facts and Realities"....I hope to get a signed copy...

 

[88E30M50]

IKR.

This thread has been very educational for me. I’m fascinated by the theory of how energy works (or doesn’t work) when moving a metal object through soft tissue. There’s a lot to fluid dynamics that just don’t translate well to simple rules of thumb.

I still like my .40s and it’s become my favorite handgun round to reload for due to the versatility of it. It will take me some time to get past the idea of using .40 or .357 Sig for winter carry but I have bought into the idea that any of the big 3 (or 5 if you include .357 Sig and 10mm) will work equally in adverse social situations.

I must ponder this more but with bourbon in hand…

 

[Trapper Jim]

Exterior Ballistics are not the only factor to consider for civil defense. While we have come along way in potency and efficiency in bullet performance, instant availability of a common caliber on the street can be a good thing. A good source of ammo and/or weaponry just may be lying around for you to use. Or, while traveling, the retail store just may not carry your caliber.

One important thing to remember that terminal performance of your favorite round depends on hitting the target. The prettiest snagged tooth, low flash, self scrubbing copper dust, temperature controlled, space aged material, and fancy pants round needs an end of flight to work. Otherwise, it’s just another spent round. The sound of gunfire is not the most lethal part of the process.

See you on the range

Trapper

 

[cedartop]

Frankly I am a little surprised we are still having the old muzzle energy = stopping power debate as it relates to service caliber handguns. I thought that myth was busted 10 or 15 years ago.