After incident cards...

[GetA2J]

I was perusing another board when I stumbled upon the discussion about what to say to an officer after an incident with a shooting.
The discussion was interesting and responses were varied and I would expect the same here.

So... to start... with the risk of plagerism.

I have read with interest suggestions on what to say, and what not to say, to law enforcement after a self-defense incident. Given that you will be under much stress, perhaps it is a good idea to print out the attached, shrunken down to keep with your CCW permit:

Dear Officer: If I have given this to you, I have unfortunately had to do what was necessary to defend innocent life. As you may have experienced yourself, this is a stressful and traumatic experience for me. Therefore, I wish to make NO further statements until I have contacted an attorney. I also do NOT consent to any searches. As a lawfully armed citizen, I ask for the same courtesy that you would show a fellow officer who was involved in a similar situation. Thank-you.

Suggestions for changes to the wording/concept of the card are welcome!

Disclaimer: this was copied from a U.S. Concealed Carry forum. It is a member only forum at United States Concealed Carry Association.

 

[JetGirl]

I have to disagree with this being a good idea.
It sort of gives the impression that you were just waiting for the chance to draw and already had everything ready to set in motion.
Not to mention you've just handed over a written statement confirming that you "weren't calm" which could be misconstrued so many ways.

 

[NateIU10]

IMO everyone should have a response ready for an incident, but I don't think the card is a great idea. I agree with Annie, it could sort of seem as if you were just waiting to shoot someone.

 

[GetA2J]

Good comments here are a couple from the other thread in the order that they appeared.
... from a user posting his location as Detroit Metro

A prosecutor may try to portray having such a card as premeditation. It doesn't necessarily mean he/she will be successful, but that's up to the jury.

And another one right on the heels of the guy from detroit

This poster lists his location as Denver Metro...

You have the right to defend yourself against bodily harm, so you carry a gun as a tool in that defense. You also have the right to defend yourself against legal harm, so why not carry a card with information on it in that defense? Prosecutor be damned.

Please note that although I did post these quotes they do no neccessarily match my own opinions. They are copied here simply for discussion.
I don't know if anybody here on this board is a member of USCCA but this particular thread is in the members only section so I will keep the copied comments to a minimum and strictly for discussion's sake.

 

[Dogman]

The only words coming out of your mouth after a shooting should be, I want to speak to my lawyer.

 

[GetA2J]

Correct...... maybe
Cooperative..... definitely NOT.

 

[GetA2J]

Masaad Ayoob has some sobering advice for how to conduct onesself after an incident...

A Five Point Check List of things you should point out to responding LEO's when they arrive that won't hurt your case and can only help bolster your claim of Self Defense. They are as follows:

1) Immediately point to the perpetrator and state "Officer, that man attacked me, I was in fear of my life and I was forced to defend myself!"

2) Then state "I will sign a criminal complaint against him." This tells the LEO's that your willingness to sign a legal complaint against the guy for attacking you that you are probably in fact the victim and not the guy bleeding on the ground who is in fact doing a pretty good impression of a victim.

After all, almost exclusively when LEO's respond to shootings, it is the guy bleeding on the ground who is usually the victim. Most shootings do not involved ccw holders who are the good guys.

3) Then point to any evidence you have found before the LEO's have arrived such as a knife, a gun, spent brass from his gun, a ball bat and say to officers "Evidence is here, here, here and here" as you point it out to the LEO's. This ensures that evidence is noted by responding officers, spent shell casing don't vanish and that all evidence is preserved.

4) If any witnesses have stayed around long enough for the police to arrive, they may not stay around long once police get there, or volunteer to come forward on their own. So say, Officer, the witnesses are here, and here and over there." and point them out to LEO's before they have a chance to leave.

Having their statements affirming the fact that you said, "Stop, leave me alone, don't hurt me" or anything else they can be helpful to your case will be lost if they are allowed to leave the scene because you wanted to assert your right to remain silent.

5) Finally say to the LEO's "Officer, I realize how serious this situation is and I will cooperate fully once I've had 24 hours to consult with my attorney!" And then clam up and keep your mouth shut! If they press you further, inform them that you've just been through a traumatic experience and again, you would like to speak with your attorney first and assure them they will have your full cooperation.

 

[Fenway]

We learned in our INGO class to ask for a lawyer and just shut up. Kirk Freeman your thoughts on this please!

 

[strongcrow]

I refuse to comment until I have heard from Kirk Freeman.

 

[indyjoe]

I refuse to comment until I have heard from Kirk Freeman.

Having never met Kirk Freeman, I have to say that it is a great name for a defense attorney.

 

[haldir]

I always heard you wanted it in the officers report that you fired in fear for your life or the lives of your family as Ayoob suggested and then STFU.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Since the owner of the board asked me to comment, I will say this: NO! Put them in the grill next to your CCW badge slather with lighter fluid and torch them both.

Those cards are a danger magnet. You had to use a deadly weapon against a fellow human being and then you wave a big red flag to the Prosecuting Attorney that you planned for something like this to transpire?

What is the best fight? The fight of no fight.

What is the best legal defense? Never having to have a legal defense.

My point is that you should avoid trouble. This card is a red cape or a chip on your shoulder to a Prosecuting Attorney who, because of political or moral reasons, wants to spike a gun owner's head to attack "gun violence" in his county.

 

[Fenway]

Thank you Kirk!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Ever been in a car wreck? Did you ever have something happen to you where you almost got seriously hurt (stairs, knife, traffic, crossing the street)?

How did you act? Did your hands shake? Did you jabber like a monkey? Could you not stop talking about it to your friend, brother, mother?

You've just been in a fight--rolling around on the parking garage floor, running for your life, almost run off the road, inter alia. You will be sweating, your heart pounding and you will realize what could have happened.

The temptation to jabber like a monkey is there. You must fight it. Train to fight Problem #2 as you train for Problem #1.

Don't talk. Ever hear your beer-drinking buddies talk about "breaking the seal"? Right, once you start talking, a smart cop just sits back and asks "wow, how horrible, then what happened?" Your words will break the seal and hose your case.

Nothing, you say nothing. "Am I free to go? I wish to speak with an attorney?" How many hundreds of cases have I seen that were defensible if they had just shut up?

Sit down. The cops want you to walk and talk. Sit. Relax. If they arrest you, they arrest you. You cannot talk yourself out of the bracelets so don't give them further ammunition by talking or presenting cards or CCW badges or Mall Ninja lapel pins.

 

[JetGirl]

I was taught that the first words should be, "I need medical attention!"
Then while your elevated vitals are logged into records you can use in court if need be, you have time to get your thoughts in order and call your lawyer.
Other than that, shut up.

 

[Ri22o]

Is it necessary to yell these things at the officers? I noticed a lot of ! in the posts above.

 

[Crystalship1]

Is it necessary to yell these things at the officers? I noticed a lot of ! in the posts above.

:rolleyesedit:

 

[GetA2J]

I do not know Kirk Freeman. Are you a defense attorney?

I also do not personally know the attorney's viewpoint on this issue.

If someone is to say that carrying a card to remind you of the proper response in case of a SHTF encounter is a sign of premeditation... then where is the legal response for actually carrying a loaded handgun? Is the fact that I have a loaded handgun on my side today a sign of premeditation?

We protect ourselves from financial disaster by purchasing insurance. We protect ourselves from personal physical disaster by carrying a loaded weapon. Why is it wrong to have a neatly typed clearly worded statement to protect ourselves from legal disaster?

This card would publically announce your willingness to cooperate with law enforcement after speaking with your attorney. Just saying over -and-over "I demand to speak with my attorney" is not exactly the kind of cooperation the investigating officers are looking for.

I also understand that a prosecuting attorney will stop at nothing to place blame on the shooter for having a scripted statement or for having a .45 caliber weapon (it may just be a larger round than the local police carry) ... or for having "evil hollowpoints" that are ONLY good for KILLING people.

 

[Crystalship1]

I also do not personally know the attorney's viewpoint on this issue.

Read his opinion:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...se/6277-after_incident_cards-2.html#post78440

AND

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...se/6277-after_incident_cards-2.html#post78459

 

[GetA2J]

Is it necessary to yell these things at the officers? I noticed a lot of ! in the posts above.

I would think that the "!" exclamation point is used in those instance with the indication of IMPORTANCE not neccessarily volume.



(tongue-in-cheek)