80% lowers - Sierra Nevada Arms

[38special]

I have all but given up and at this point I am counting it as a lost investment.

These guys on Facebook that keep posting about being patient and how good a job Sierra is doing and "hater's gonna hate", blah, blah are disillusioned in my opinion. It's been over a year since the fund CLOSED and you hear of a few people that got some lowers.

What cracks me up is he is selling drill bit sets, Cerakote, etc and these folks keep sending him money! I wouldn't send him another dime at this point.

Then the owner said the other day he is shipping out lowers where funders opted to have them finished to 100%. He gave some story about set-ups and time and that's why he did it. I understand machine set-ups just fine but that shouldn't override the fact that he should focus on taking care of the people who put him in business first, then add other services. If someone wants to add Cerakote or have them finished 100%, then move them to the bottom of the list. We funded for a 80% raw lower.

If I ever do get my lowers, I am just going to sell them at this point. I have moved on and am building an AR with a lower I bought already.

I don't know if we have any legal recourse but I would sign a class action if one was created.

You may be able to tell I am not happy with these guys, lol.

I have voiced this to RocketHub. All they said was they don't guarantee the investments. Lesson learned. I won't crowd fund anymore. I'd rather do what my wife does and make Kiva loans.

If you're on facebook, I made a discussion group some time ago: https://www.facebook.com/Snadiscussion

There's interesting info and pictures there. Even if you do get a lower (and you probably won't) they're out of spec pieces of crap.

This guy Jerald Jason Saffle has done 2 other failed Rockethub campaigns that never produced - just not to the magnitude of $226,000.

 

[Gunaria]

I warned you all that I smelt a scam from the get go.

 

[dans4420]

Shame people didn't look into that before handing the stranger on the internet money. Oh well guess it gives people an easy way to play the victim and complain on the internet.

 

[gregkl]

I warned you all that I smelt a scam from the get go.

Shame people didn't look into that before handing the stranger on the internet money. Oh well guess it gives people an easy way to play the victim and complain on the internet.

I get this. Yes, I made a bad investment just like I have done a few other times in my life. When I look at my investments over the years, I haven't done that great but at least I am glad I bought Ford stock when it $4.00 a share.

I hate losing money but I have been so conservative for most of my life, I thought I would take a chance with $50 and see if it worked. At this point, it looks like I lost the $50.

Yes, I suppose I am complaining on the internet. I viewed it more as a conversation with others that are in the same boat or as knowledge to be shared with others so they don't make the same mistake as I did.

I don't really see myself as a victim, but more of a not well informed investor. Just like when I bought APS stock in the 90's and rode it down until I dumped it for a loss. Oops! GE stock, I at least broke even. Ford, I did real good. I only wish I had invested in GM when it was down around $2.00 share.

If I do by some chance get my lowers I'll be making someone a good deal on them!

 

[HoughMade]

No risk, no reward. Had everything worked out, you'd look like a genius right now. That's the nature of "investment". Heck, who knows, it may still work out....but hopefully you don't have any range trips planned for those lowers just yet.

 

[oldfb]

I tagged in on this because I took a chance with RocketHub and Battle Born Tactics.
I have one of the 4 I funded on the classifieds now if anyone wants to check specs or inspect them they are welcome to it. I've checked the measurement on the front and it came in at .0509 using a set of mitutoyo digital calipers that haven't been dropped or been out of the case getting kicked across the floor.

Centerline looks OK but not 100% positive my measuring skills are up to engineering standards.
My YHM upper fits but will not mate up with the rear takedown slot as they haven't been milled out enough.
I was impressed with the look and feel but probably because I am still learning.

SNA and BBT may have common interests or relations based on earlier posts. It could just be they were related by marriage and or the IT business end.

I have a few thoughts based on what I heard and can speculate that he is getting killed on shipping, he has a bunch of angry people tuning up on him about items that were never guaranteed an exact timeline or obligation and it seems he is scrambling to meet his obligations any way possible.
If you get hot under the collar and start slinging dirt, I wouldn't be surprised if your name gets special handling. He told us this from the get go. When I offered to give up one of my four lowers to help defray the shipping costs for my order maybe help a couple more go out. He was very receptive to the understanding and offer. Three days later my order arrived with all four 80% lowers and jig.
When I asked him about it he told me it wasn't an error and thank you for your patience and support or words to that effect.

A little kindness and understanding will go a long way when someone is trying to get started and feeling overwhelmed.

My gut tells me if you work with him and don't lose your mind things will sort themselves out unless the business tanks.
I supported them from the beginning and when my "investment" was in jeopardy I offered a solution to both of our problems. Win win will always trump a win lose confrontation in my mind.
Why would anyone think brow beating some dude into bankruptcy would work? My gut tells me this guy not out to screw people.

Good luck and stay chill people.

 

[38special]

I tagged in on this because I took a chance with RocketHub and Battle Born Tactics.
I have one of the 4 I funded on the classifieds now if anyone wants to check specs or inspect them they are welcome to it. I've checked the measurement on the front and it came in at .0509 using a set of mitutoyo digital calipers that haven't been dropped or been out of the case getting kicked across the floor.

Centerline looks OK but not 100% positive my measuring skills are up to engineering standards.
My YHM upper fits but will not mate up with the rear takedown slot as they haven't been milled out enough.
I was impressed with the look and feel but probably because I am still learning.

SNA and BBT may have common interests or relations based on earlier posts. It could just be they were related by marriage and or the IT business end.

I have a few thoughts based on what I heard and can speculate that he is getting killed on shipping, he has a bunch of angry people tuning up on him about items that were never guaranteed an exact timeline or obligation and it seems he is scrambling to meet his obligations any way possible.
If you get hot under the collar and start slinging dirt, I wouldn't be surprised if your name gets special handling. He told us this from the get go. When I offered to give up one of my four lowers to help defray the shipping costs for my order maybe help a couple more go out. He was very receptive to the understanding and offer. Three days later my order arrived with all four 80% lowers and jig.
When I asked him about it he told me it wasn't an error and thank you for your patience and support or words to that effect.

A little kindness and understanding will go a long way when someone is trying to get started and feeling overwhelmed.

My gut tells me if you work with him and don't lose your mind things will sort themselves out unless the business tanks.
I supported them from the beginning and when my "investment" was in jeopardy I offered a solution to both of our problems. Win win will always trump a win lose confrontation in my mind.
Why would anyone think brow beating some dude into bankruptcy would work? My gut tells me this guy not out to screw people.

Good luck and stay chill people.

So he shipped you your order ahead of me despite my likely having ordered it before you.

Seems legit.

I'm around #80 on the list and I've seen nothing. NOTHING.

He is posting pictures of HUNDREDS of lowers and he hasn't fulfilled the first 80 orders on rockethub. He's selling lowers to other customers using the money I gave him. If that's not screwing me, I'm not sure what is.

Not only that, he's incredibly unprofessional. I asked a few questions on facebook - he banned me. I started a discussion page on facebook. He sent me a vulgar message, then threatened to sue me if I don't take it down.

A discussion page. On facebook. This guy is an egotistical, unprofessional moron.

It's hard to "stay chill" when he sends a reply to me message "ur a ***ing troll and just try to cause trouble", then bans me.

Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Snadiscussion

His most recent threat to me:

 

[gregkl]

I deactivated my FB page so I'm not seeing or hearing of how he is doing. I have given up and moved on. When I sell my house, I will send him an e-mail with an updated address so that if he ever sends me my two lowers, at least he will have the correct address.

I left the job that had the mill I was going to use to finish them, so even if I do get them, I will post them for sale here on INGO for what I paid; $35 each.

I took a chance and stepped out of my comfort zone to "invest" in a business. It wasn't the first time I lost money(stock investments have not all been winners, lol), and it may not be the last. However, I am done with crowd funding of this nature and RocketHub for sure.

If I decide to invest in this type of instrument, I will do Kiva loans like my wife and daughter. They have made back all of the money they invested initially and they keep on making the loans. They have been doing this for several years. They don't get goods, but they get repaid and they feel good about helping someone make enough money to buy some food or maybe a pair of shoes.

The positive types out there can say what they want about being patient, giving the guy a break, etc.. The reality is he is not approaching this business like he should. He may be passionate about the 2nd Amendment, guns, whatever, but he is no businessman. And just like others who think passion alone will make them successful, he to will join the statistics of start-ups that failed.

 

[oldfb]

I've been on this board for quite a while now and see how the nonsense gets started. Please don't lump me with the bad karma swimming around. I merely stated my experience with BBT and Jacob with my gut feelings. Seeing as I was on the first Battle Born RH campaign and not the SNA one I may have had a different experience. I am still following this to see how it all ends for you. At this point I doubt there is anything that would resolve this for you and wish you well and good luck. Unfortunately the
Rocket hub wasn't a binding contract for anything purchased so the recourse we had was before the campaign ended and with our credit card company..

I hope clear heads prevail in this case and you eventually receive your 80% lowers.


I feel your anger and understand your frustrations.I've been part of exposing the first real scam on INGO using a "raffle" premise so I totally understand that you want justice.
The sad truth is that sometimes people just screw up and it is too late to make things right.

 

[gregkl]

I've been on this board for quite a while now and see how the nonsense gets started. Please don't lump me with the bad karma swimming around. I merely stated my experience with BBT and Jacob with my gut feelings. Seeing as I was on the first Battle Born RH campaign and not the SNA one I may have had a different experience. I am still following this to see how it all ends for you. At this point I doubt there is anything that would resolve this for you and wish you well and good luck. Unfortunately the
Rocket hub wasn't a binding contract for anything purchased so the recourse we had was before the campaign ended and with our credit card company..

I hope clear heads prevail in this case and you eventually receive your 80% lowers.


I feel your anger and understand your frustrations.I've been part of exposing the first real scam on INGO using a "raffle" premise so I totally understand that you want justice.
The sad truth is that sometimes people just screw up and it is too late to make things right.

My comments weren't directed at you my friend. It was at those on FB that defended the guy with vehemency.

 

[oldfb]

So he shipped you your order ahead of me despite my likely having ordered it before you.

Seems legit.

I'm around #80 on the list and I've seen nothing. NOTHING.

He is posting pictures of HUNDREDS of lowers and he hasn't fulfilled the first 80 orders on rockethub. He's selling lowers to other customers using the money I gave him. If that's not screwing me, I'm not sure what is.

Not only that, he's incredibly unprofessional. I asked a few questions on facebook - he banned me. I started a discussion page on facebook. He sent me a vulgar message, then threatened to sue me if I don't take it down.

A discussion page. On facebook. This guy is an egotistical, unprofessional moron.

It's hard to "stay chill" when he sends a reply to me message "ur a ***ing troll and just try to cause trouble", then bans me.

Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Snadiscussion

His most recent threat to me:

View attachment 30855

I think you or me are miscommunicating on one issue. SNA was the RH you funded run by Jason. Mine was BBT run by Jacob. There is evidence posted that the two may have common ties but I don't think they are the same person so I don't think I jumped ahead of you in line so to speak.
I agree it looked fishy when I saw this and I noticed the two "businesses" were using the same verbiage and attitude of don't waste our time and get bumped to the end of the list.
It was brazen and "unorthodox" but we see now how many small business owners are taking the "Three wise man approach" and it pays off because a certain mindset is done with the coddling, keep everyone happy customer service. It plays well with the all balls Alpha operator crowds and it works for them.
The small startup is in constant battle for survival and anyone trying to attack and do anything that might jeopardize their attempts is classified a zombie with this attitude.

The problems with being on the funder side using RH and the likes is there is no contract for actual goods. So the AG or prosecutor will have to prove fraud was intended from some point. Running multiple campaigns to generate the true startup capital isn't necessarily fraud because of the "gift" portion of the goods in question.

I doubt the people that funded thousands or hundreds of these "AR Blanks" with fictitous names are going to quietly wander off into the sunset after reading the Search Warrants involved with these California AR finishing "businesses" that were operating.

Finishing your reciever at your old job could very well have placed the business in jeapordy of being charged with "manufacturing" with out a license. Purely based on the government whim and interpretation of who is doing what and how.
Most people don't understand legalese so it is easy to run into serious trouble based on where the mill is located.
Not even counting the people that are building these for illegal purposes there are guys like us that have to be extra careful not to become something of a cautionary tale in all of this.
At this stage I'm building lamps or big rig gearshifts out of mine and using one as my test mule or trading it with someone for goods legally. If the day comes where new builds are banned I will have a piece of history and a story to tell the grandkids.

I

 

[oldfb]

My comments weren't directed at you my friend. It was at those on FB that defended the guy with vehemency.

Did not think yours were, just heading off the paid shill comments that may follow.

All I know is that a reasonable approach resulted in a positive outcome in my case.

I could probably salvage the situation were I in either of your employ because customer support/advocacy is my gig. I however doubt either one of you are ready to admit that this situation can be resolved with any real satisfaction.

Maybe the SNA guy is a good guy that is watching his efforts be pounded into oblivion by a hundred people less reasonable than you are and you're just catching that backlash. Crystal ball is cloudy here.lol

I know if people were slamming my name and accusing me of fraud when they clearly knew the rules going in by agreeing to the terms of the campaign, I would be pissed and the temptation would be there to put them last on the list. I would resist it. But it would be very real in the face of all the threats and damage caused by the more beligerant crowd.

Good luck and be well bud.
Hope some of this helps you going forward.

 

[38special]

I think you or me are miscommunicating on one issue. SNA was the RH you funded run by Jason. Mine was BBT run by Jacob. There is evidence posted that the two may have common ties but I don't think they are the same person so I don't think I jumped ahead of you in line so to speak.

You are correct. That's a mistake on my part. I read it wrong.

Did not think yours were, just heading off the paid shill comments that may follow.

All I know is that a reasonable approach resulted in a positive outcome in my case.

I could probably salvage the situation were I in either of your employ because customer support/advocacy is my gig. I however doubt either one of you are ready to admit that this situation can be resolved with any real satisfaction.

Maybe the SNA guy is a good guy that is watching his efforts be pounded into oblivion by a hundred people less reasonable than you are and you're just catching that backlash. Crystal ball is cloudy here.lol

I know if people were slamming my name and accusing me of fraud when they clearly knew the rules going in by agreeing to the terms of the campaign, I would be pissed and the temptation would be there to put them last on the list. I would resist it. But it would be very real in the face of all the threats and damage caused by the more beligerant crowd.

Good luck and be well bud.
Hope some of this helps you going forward.

The problem for me isn't unforeseen issues or even that it is taking so long. It's that SNA is now very clearly profiting from new sales when they haven't even fulfilled 80 of the THOUSANDS of initial orders.

This is what he's doing:

1.) Take many thousands of pre-paid orders

2.) Get business started, buy machinery etc

3.) Start manufacturing

4.) Ship product to NEW sales, sold well after the THOUSANDS of initial sales

5.) Still hasn't fulfilled even 80 of the RH orders.

Not only is he slow on delivery, he's simply ignoring the RH funders altogether. There is documented proof that he is currently shipping to people buying directly on his website because it's more profitable to him.

It's not just on a small scale. It's egregious. I'm number eighty. 80. Out of thousands. He's clearly not even making a LITTLE effort to fill the RH orders. Not even SOME.

Now he's in the business of manufacturing complete lowers, uppers and selling them....all the while he hasn't fulfilled even 80 RH orders.

This is clearly wrong.

 

[38special]

A little more info....all of this can be found on my SNA Discussion page on facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/Snadiscussion/

At least 1 piece of evidence that SNA is shipping to new funders BEFORE RocketHub funders:



Here, there is a direct connection between BBT and SNA. Battleborntactics website just HAPPENS to be owned by Jerald Jason Saffle (of SNA)'s ex wife. A bit too much of a coincidence there....



Original post I found this info: Rockethub 80% Lower Receiver Projects NOW WITH POLL **Update 09/30/2013** - Page 22 - AR15.COM

Lucy Saffle (his ex wife) aliases: Lacy Saffle - Address, Phone, Public Records - Radaris

And to top it off, the guy just handles stuff unprofessionally. I asked reasonable questions in a respectful manner. I'm not a vulgar or unintelligent communicator. His response was vulgarity and unprofessionalism:

 

[oldfb]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess at this point you would rather they focus exclusively on RH orders before they sell and deliver any other items from their CNC machines.

I am looking at this from a real world perception that tells me if they were to do this exclusively it would result in complete failure for the business. Primarily because the time and material it takes to complete thousands of lowers and the cost of shipping just wasn't there from the initial campaign.
The original campaign was for tooling and materials assistance because they were offering the dream of an alternative to $100+ 80% lowers in the market. Enter the followup campaigns for additional investors to gather additional capital to cover expenses and salaries to keep those machines going and refine their process. Meanwhile they realize that their not going to be able to meet these obligations alone and are looking for options.

Option one is close the doors and default on any other loans and risk any collateral they may have used or stick it to every contributing member from RH.
Or roll the dice and run several more campaigns at higher values for their "gift" lowers add on upgrades in another RH campaign in the hopes the influx of cash and added profit margins by batching the add on sales/investment keeps that little engine cranking away. By now the original investors are getting really nervous but the deadline still is in sight but there is absolutely no way to meet the timetable based on the sheer volume of the obligations.
Remember that agreement we clicked on where it said this was a crowd funding opportunity and there was no obligation or guarantee that this venture would succeed?

Does the owner fold up shop and risk lawsuits from people that feel cheated or double down while protecting his little startup by selling products for profit and using some of that revenue into keeping his doors open and staying in business while slowly fulfilling his promise to the initial funders?

Is he doing just enough to keep the law at bay? Is he a "moron" as someone said? Did he promise incredibly low "prices" and take the money to Cabo? Or is he doing the only option he has available to keep plugging away?

The promise that they are working on getting their initial orders out and it being a priority while selling new goods and services for profit is hard to swallow. The alternative is shutting the doors and screwing everyone.

My point being that if this isn't just a scam with no intention to ever make good on his promises anything that harms the business is counter productive to the goal of the investors.

There is no way to know how many orders actually have shipped because people "ordering" hundreds aren't lining up to go on record for obvious reasons.

Good luck and goodnight. I hope you all get a package in the mail soon.

 

[38special]

You make some solid points, but my point remains.....not only has filling RH orders not been a priority as he keeps saying it is, they haven't filled 80 orders. How do I know? I'm #80 on the list.

As for orders of hundreds of lowers - that option was not added until halfway through the campaign. The most you could order when I ordered mine was 4.

So that means that there could be no more than 320 lowers before mine if everyone ordered their max. I suspect they did not.

This is also made more troubling by the fact that the few folks who have received lowers have posted pictures of off-center, out of spec lowers they received. It's all pretty disheartening.

I'm not worried about the small amount of money I "invested" at this point. I'm more interested in exposing Jerald Jason Saffle for his horrible business practices, lies, unprofessional attitude and general shadyness, lest anyone else get ripped off by him.

 

[oldfb]

You are assuming that the orders are going out in the order placed and you haven't been punitively placed in a timeout for what has transpired. Perhaps you are being taught a lesson here?
Is it right, ethical or illegal? I'm thinking it could very well be that is the case. Once you went full negative, at that point you removed all incentive for most men to do anything but what you want.

Some people are that hard nosed and don't respond well with threats, intimidation tactics and especially if he is Law Enforcement he will really flip out when the lawyer threats start.
Sadly he is safe from most options because we were never purchasing these items, they were offered as a promotion and not given a true delivery date.
Being that he is either legit or a crook protected by the conditions we agreed to and an LLC. I doubt legally he has left himself exposed and he very well could bring a suit against you for damages to his business if you cross that line. If he is legit I'd expect him to do this just to protect his new business. If he is a con then I'd doubly expect it, just to muddy the waters in case it goes to trial.

You need to understand that if he is teaching a lesson here he will enjoy watching you kick and scream.
It will only bring him more supporters than you. Because snitches get stitches and buyer beware is their fallback. They are counting on our ability to ignore the suffering until it is our own and as a society we have been programmed to blame the victims while he is cheating the Greedy fools that wanted a $25 80% lower and expected it to actually deliver or be worth a damm when it gets there.

A real prick would send the annoying people one of the blems to shut them up.

Or never send you one because there is no possible way you wouldn't have something to say negative regardless of how nice it was.

Me, I would send you a few extra lowers with coatings just to prove you wrong but a marine might not negotiate with a terrorist. You don't strike me as crazy but you could be...lol
I guarantee he has had death threats over this just because I live near ****cago and Gary so I see a ton of crazy every day.

Maybe your just that "one guy" that is paying for every douchebag he has ever known and he really is a "moron" as you called him.

You've made your case perfectly clear as to your goals here and elsewhere so I expect you will get a letter from his attorney. Probably some retired uncle that is bored.

I'm torn between asking if I can broker a peace agreement between you guys just to prove it could be done or watching this dance til the Fat lady sings.

You have to admit it does keep you guessing.

Life offers us joy in anything even adversity. It is up to us all to find it.

Be well people.

 

[ggglobert9]

For what it is worth...I went to the website. They have several completed stripped lowers, several other items. They have completed stripped lowers for $199. I inquired why I could buy an Anderson, PSA, etc stripped for around $50 and what was special about theirs. They replied to go to their distributor-BoTach.com?

Re: Website Inquiry from Saffle Industries - Sierra Nevada Arms

Visit our dealer botach.com they are running a special.
On 8/8/2014 2:45 AM, Tom wrote:
From: Tom
Email:


------------------------------------------------------


I have a question or two! I Googled and found you. I have several different
options for lowers,Anderson, PSA, ATI Omni polymer. They run around $50. Can
you tell me why yours cost about 4 times as much? This is not meant as
critical of your product at all. I am just not up on different aluminum
types etc., and am very interested in the differences. I appreciate any help
as I don't want to just get what I pay for if there is such a major
difference in the manufacturing process. I would also like to know an approx
turn around time of delivery. One more! Can you engrave any custom items?
Thanks for any help.


------------------------------------------------------

 

[38special]

You are assuming that the orders are going out in the order placed and you haven't been punitively placed in a timeout for what has transpired. Perhaps you are being taught a lesson here?
Is it right, ethical or illegal? I'm thinking it could very well be that is the case. Once you went full negative, at that point you removed all incentive for most men to do anything but what you want.

Another interesting point, but one I've thought of and also came to the pretty easy conclusion that it's incorrect. First, #60 on the list is not vocal and has not started a facebook page to discuss SNA. He also does not have his order.

Second, there is a list where folks have updated their order status and with the exception of a few random people who apparently contacted him directly or stopped by the store almost nobody has received their lower.

Also, I have screenshots of 2 cases (and who knows how many I never saw) where folks buying them way later have received them before everyone else.

I'm a pretty forgiving person. I also run a business, as does my father. I know how to ethically run a business and this isn't it.


EDIT: Found the list https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...bWNzb3JHcEg3YVBmeENvcUVOcHc&usp=sharing#gid=0

Also, in the arfcom thread ( http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/6..._WITH_POLL___Update_09_30_2013__.html&page=35 ) #55 indicates that he also has not received his order.

The point I'm making is less about ME receiving my order - I've written it off - but more about the fact that he is very clearly NOT sending them out in order and has sent VERY FEW orders out.

Those who have received their orders complained that they are very poorly made and out of spec.

At this point, I don't care about receiving my order. If they're out of spec, I'm not building a rifle with them. I already bought more for $40.50 shipped and received them right away (obviously not from SNA).

I just don't like folks operating a business is such an unprofessional manner, lying about it, and then spending more time deleting facebook comments and threatening to sue than delivering product.

I created the SNA Discussion page because any time anyone even asked a question - didn't even have to be critical of him - he simply deleted it. People were getting fed up and he just deleted everything and hid all the evidence.

It's shady at the very least.

 

[38special]

#130 or so has not received their order: Rockethub 80% Lower Receiver Projects NOW WITH POLL **Update 09/30/2013** - Page 39 - AR15.COM

SNA is offering to send you your order AHEAD OF EVERYONE ELSE WHO ALREADY PAID if you pay for an upgrade: Rockethub 80% Lower Receiver Projects NOW WITH POLL **Update 09/30/2013** - Page 39 - AR15.COM