6.5 Grendel / 6.8 SPC, 20 Years, Where Are They Now?

[Squid556]

@Squid556 great write up bro! When I was building my match rifle, I spent hours researching 6mm, 6.5mm, 6.8mm and wow was in information overload......as I balanced this & that of each cartridge vs the 223/556 it was a daunting task, as I was talking to other competitors, I heat hearing, 223 components are easy to find , priced decent and all the ballistics are a known formula, now that being said my 77 grain load will just flat hammer at 600 yards.
As I look into building a "Palma rifle " the great cartridge debate has started oll over again.
View attachment 295564 View attachment 295565 View attachment 295566

Thanks! Glad I'm not the only one nerding out over cartridges haha. At 500 yards my 18 inch 5.56 with the 75s are boringly easy to hit shilouette with. Energy drops below 300 ft/lb at that point so I wouldn't want to shoot any living thing past that range ... But I'm thinking I can push it quite a bit farther. Going to try 750 yards this week.

Also, whats that device on the end of your rifle?

 

[55fairlane]

Thanks! Glad I'm not the only one nerding out over cartridges haha. At 500 yards my 18 inch 5.56 with the 75s are boringly easy to hit shilouette with. Energy drops below 300 ft/lb at that point so I wouldn't want to shoot any living thing past that range ... But I'm thinking I can push it quite a bit farther. Going to try 750 yards this week.

Also, whats that device on the end of your rifle?

The blue tube? It is a sight (radius) extension or a "bloop tube " for when I run irons (match grade apature type sights) on my rifle........750 yards fun! Are you shooting sling? F-class or bench?

 

[Squid556]

The blue tube? It is a sight (radius) extension or a "bloop tube " for when I run irons (match grade apature type sights) on my rifle........750 yards fun! Are you shooting sling? F-class or bench?

Nothing too fancy just bench shooting to see what's possible.

 

[Basher]

However, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me in a bolt action unless the goal is just to have the softest recoiling round capable of taking medium game.

Aside from stumbling upon a CZ 527 MTR at a stupid good price, the above was my other reason for getting a bolt action rifle in 6.5 Grendel. I’m not necessarily recoil averse, but being on anti-platelet meds means I bruise easier than normal for the time being. I still have and enjoy a nice FNH SPR in .308, but it’s a heavy pig (which helps mitigate recoil), and thus is too heavy for many actual hunting/field uses. While the 527MTR is still on the heavier side for a hunting rifle (that heavy MTR barrel at 25.6” adds some heft), it’s not unbearable at all. Light recoil combined with an ability to really reach out there were major draws for me. Plus it’s a 527, which I really enjoy.

Perhaps a 6.5CM loaded with 120s would have been a more “sensible” choice, or even a Howa Mini in 6ARC. There’s always time to add another rifle to the safe if I feel like experimenting lol. Truth be told though, most of my uses would have been satisfied with a .223, but where’s the fun in that??

 

[dukeboy_318]

Fair warning. Full length Squid spiel, so ya may want some coffee and popcorn .



Without a doubt, when talking AR calibers it seems everyone has their own take on “everything wrong with 5.56”. Doesn’t seem that long ago but around 2003 the 6.8 Remington Special Purpose and 6.5 Grendel cartridges came out as solutions to upgrade short action AR15 ballistics.
View attachment 294520
5.56 NATO / 6.5 Grendel / 6.8 SPC

I thought since so much time has passed it would be interesting to see just how the market has embraced these cartridges now that we are out of the fad phase.

Before I get to that I want to touch on what these rounds even are for the uninitiated.
View attachment 294521
6.8 SPC / .300 Blackout / 7.62x39

The 6.8 SPCs story starts like all good stories. Apparently some folks had no clue about how intermediate cartridges work… then were surprised that 5.56, at long range, wasn’t some Call of Duty insta-kill (Squids paraphrase)… so in a joint venture between Remington and the US Army they set out to create a longer range harder hitting round that still fit in an M4 carbine. They ended up with with a .277 diameter, 115 grain bullet doing around 2800 fps and it was glorious….. but later downloaded to around 2500 fps due to Remington, once again, dropping the ball.
View attachment 294529

So now folks are up to speed on our 6.8 , I can bring the uninitiated up to speed on 6.5 Grendel.

View attachment 294530
6.5 Grendel / 6.5 Creedmoor / 7.62x39

Again same time period and goal, gunsmith Bill Alexander and Lapua work together to stretch the most distance out of the AR15. In a slightly less foolheared endeavor they create this gem of a cartridge. .264 diameter bullet, 123 grains, at 2600 fps although its usually loaded down to 2400 fps. I’m not sure who to blame for this, but feel free to blame Remington since they are already the bad guy in the story.
View attachment 294532

——————————————————
So now that everyone is on the same page….. these both were designed with the same goals in mind. Let’s look at how they compare, and where they ended up now 20 years later.

Comparing apples to apples, from the same premium manufacturer, this is what I’ve found. I’ve provided data for as far as you SHOULD be using intermediate cartridges… and nearly MAX range.

Nosler Custom Competition
- 6.8 SPC 115 gr
300 yds, 1120 ft/lb energy, 1.5 foot drop
700 yds, 380 ft/lb energy, 16 foot drop

Nosler Custom Competition
- 6.5 Grendel 123 gr
300 yds, 1000 ft/lb energy, 1.5 foot drop
700 yds, 530 ft/lb energy, 15 foot drop

You can see how similar they are in their performance. 6.5 of course being the better round 500 yards +. Both of these rounds are a fair shake better than 5.56 at range so they accomplished their goal, but what did the market do with them now that they have been around a while?

—————————————————
I searched several places to get a feel for how popular and who’s using these rounds as of 2023

Ammoseek search engine shows 150 listings for 6.8 SPC ammo, while showing 300+ listings for 6.5 Grendel ammo.

Gunbroker shows around 300 listings for 6.8 SPC rifles, while listing 800 6.5 Grendel rifles.

Lipseys wholesaler shows 6 rifles in 6.8 SPC, while showing 17 rifles in 6.5 Grendel

Palmetto State Armory and Bear Creek Arsenal both show ZERO 6.8 rifles or uppers, and have on average about 20 uppers and rifle for 6.5 Grendel.

6.8 SPC has been picked up by LWRC and modernized into a really great rifle they call the Six8 A5. Even has optimized proprietary Magpul magazines. Wilson Combat also has several high end 6.8 rifles to sell.

6.8mm SPC AR-15 Rifles - Wilson Combat

Wilson Combat AR15 rifles chambered in 6.8mm SPC - an ideal hunting round for medium to heavy game and turns the AR into a serious hunting rifle.

wilsoncombat.com

SIX8-A5

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Suffice it to say, the 6.8 is declining in popularity but seems to have some better uses as an actual intermediate cartridge in a military context than the Grendel. It performs much better in short barrels, brass is cheaper to make, stacks better in magazines too. Allegedly Jordan and Saudi Arabia actually purchased 6.8 in large quantities so that and hog hunters are what’s keeping this one going.

6.5 Grendel seems to have found its niche in the long range target shooting community. Cost seems to stay high on ammo although there is steel case wolf out there for now anyway. It stacks kinda crappy in large AR mags but has found some new life in AK mags and rifles. So much so that Serbia has been testing and fielding them in Zastava rifles allegedly.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/11/22/first-military-6-5-grendel-rifle-zastava-m17-ak-dmr-revealed-serbian-army/

——————————————————
In conclusion, both rounds have their fans and critics. In a horrible plot twist I like both equally but identify as a 5.56 guy! (At least in a military context). With how inexpensive AR uppers have gotten, I encourage people to buy and try new old rounds and see how they actually do on the range and hunting.

Anyway hope you enjoyed my research project for the night. Share it if you did. Looking forward to hearing your SPC and Grendel stories down below.

My 6.5 Grendel has become my go to hunting rifle and target rifle. Only because I just love the accuracy it has. In fact, it’s all I’m reloading for now. I took a doe last year at 375 yards and she fell right in her tracks.

 

[BackFromDC]

Back in 2010, me and my roommates got Stag 6.8 uppers to be "ahead of the curve" on the "caliber of the future"

Boy were we wrong, sold that upper to someone else a few years later

 

[Mgderf]

My 6.5 Grendel... took a doe last year at 375 yards and she fell right in her tracks.

I have to know more.
What bullet/charge were you using?
What velocity at muzzle?
How long is your barrel?
What twist rate?
Was there any holdover/ what is your scope zeroed for?
You can't just put that out there without more info.

I'm not saying it didn't happen.
I'm asking, "How do I repeat it with mine?"

 

[dukeboy_318]

I have to know more.
What bullet/charge were you using?
What velocity at muzzle?
How long is your barrel?
What twist rate?
Was there any holdover/ what is your scope zeroed for?
You can't just put that out there without more info.

I'm not saying it didn't happen.
I'm asking, "How do I repeat it with mine?"

I’ll do my best to answer as much of that as possible.

First I own property that has two hills spread out over 70 acres. Hills are at 660 and 780 ft elevation. It’s about 700 yards down to the bottom of the valley, give or take. She was at 375 according to the LRF. My Grendel I have zeroed for 300 yards so I didn’t do much hold over at all.
Factory Hornady Black 123 gr BTHP, not sure what published velocity is off top of my head, I’ll look that up.
Rifle is built on the AR platform.
Barrel is a heavy bull barrel made from a Brougtn blank
24 inch, 1:8 twist with a custom degree crown and an SAS comp.
VLTOR upper and Lower,
Magpul PRS stock
Les Baer BCG
Jhard adjustable single stage currently with 1.5 pound spring
Mark IV glass.
Ceracoated in FDE.

I’ve had it as far out as 600 meters.
I typically don’t take it out hunting or at least didn’t but it was the last day of season and all the deer seemed to be staying out of shotgun range all season long so it got the call.

 

[Hohn]

I personally think any cartridge relying on .257 or .277 bullets it basically dead in the water. There’s simply not enough reason to prefer them over a mere 0.007” jump up to the .264 or .284 and the VASTLY better bullet selection in those calibers.

Think about it, if we exclude the 257 and 277, the common bullet diameters are:
.204
.224
.244
.264
.284

…Noticing a pattern yet?

I’ll admit I’d more partial to the 6.5G because I went big on 6.5cm and managing reloading inventory is much easier staying in that caliber.

But I just can’t bring myself to build a 6.5G upper or rifle. I have a couple pieces of brass I keep taunting myself with, but asking myself what capability this realistically provides me I keep getting the answer that I don’t see the point. OK, so you want a hunting gas gun. Would I build a 6.5G for that when I have an 18” .308 M5 that’s 10# and carryable for me? I can’t imagine a hunting situation in which I’d rather have the 6.5G than a .308.

What about long range? I have a 6.5 bolt gun with a 28” barrel. That goes as long as I’d ever want to take any .264 caliber gun.

What about plinking? I have 22LR and 5.56 rifles for that.

I really, really wanted to be justify the 6.5G because I think it’s just cool. But apart from the inherent curiosity and desire to tinker, I have no justification for it whatsoever.

I do believe it’s possible to be so well rounded you have no point.

 

[Squid556]

I personally think any cartridge relying on .257 or .277 bullets it basically dead in the water. There’s simply not enough reason to prefer them over a mere 0.007” jump up to the .264 or .284 and the VASTLY better bullet selection in those calibers.

Think about it, if we exclude the 257 and 277, the common bullet diameters are:
.204
.224
.244
.264
.284

…Noticing a pattern yet?

I’ll admit I’d more partial to the 6.5G because I went big on 6.5cm and managing reloading inventory is much easier staying in that caliber.

But I just can’t bring myself to build a 6.5G upper or rifle. I have a couple pieces of brass I keep taunting myself with, but asking myself what capability this realistically provides me I keep getting the answer that I don’t see the point. OK, so you want a hunting gas gun. Would I build a 6.5G for that when I have an 18” .308 M5 that’s 10# and carryable for me? I can’t imagine a hunting situation in which I’d rather have the 6.5G than a .308.

What about long range? I have a 6.5 bolt gun with a 28” barrel. That goes as long as I’d ever want to take any .264 caliber gun.

What about plinking? I have 22LR and 5.56 rifles for that.

I really, really wanted to be justify the 6.5G because I think it’s just cool. But apart from the inherent curiosity and desire to tinker, I have no justification for it whatsoever.

I do believe it’s possible to be so well rounded you have no point.

I’m planning on doing a different thread and write up to appropriately cover the subject, but I’ve tried to be consistent in the whole “right too for the job” ideology. To subjectively view a cartridges strengths and weaknesses and use it where most beneficial.

In doing that, it keeps the 6.5 Grendel out of comparison to standard short action bolt gun calibers. It’s apples and oranges. No way will the Grendel be superior to 6.5 Creedmoor or 308 Win. I just don’t think it’s a fair. Two different platforms, two different levels of performance.

IMHO, that being said the Grendel should only be compared against its fellow apples. People who are using an AR platform and wanting a medium / long range cartridge. Therefore Grendel should be compared to 224 Valkyrie and 6mm ARC.

I’m on the fence about it but as I’ve learned more about he 6.8 SPC I think it’s more fair to compare it to short/ medium range “combat” cartridges like 7.62x39, rather than medium / long range “target” cartridges like like Grendel, ARC, and Valkyrie.

 

[dukeboy_318]

I personally think any cartridge relying on .257 or .277 bullets it basically dead in the water. There’s simply not enough reason to prefer them over a mere 0.007” jump up to the .264 or .284 and the VASTLY better bullet selection in those calibers.

Think about it, if we exclude the 257 and 277, the common bullet diameters are:
.204
.224
.244
.264
.284

…Noticing a pattern yet?

I’ll admit I’d more partial to the 6.5G because I went big on 6.5cm and managing reloading inventory is much easier staying in that caliber.

But I just can’t bring myself to build a 6.5G upper or rifle. I have a couple pieces of brass I keep taunting myself with, but asking myself what capability this realistically provides me I keep getting the answer that I don’t see the point. OK, so you want a hunting gas gun. Would I build a 6.5G for that when I have an 18” .308 M5 that’s 10# and carryable for me? I can’t imagine a hunting situation in which I’d rather have the 6.5G than a .308.

What about long range? I have a 6.5 bolt gun with a 28” barrel. That goes as long as I’d ever want to take any .264 caliber gun.

What about plinking? I have 22LR and 5.56 rifles for that.

I really, really wanted to be justify the 6.5G because I think it’s just cool. But apart from the inherent curiosity and desire to tinker, I have no justification for it whatsoever.

I do believe it’s possible to be so well rounded you have no point.

Honestly, for me, I was looking for something with more range than the 5.56 rifles I had. I was saving up for a REM 700 in 308 when I stumbled into a very good deal on this barrel blank. Started looking at it and seeing how I was having trouble finding a left handed REM 700, and I had everything but the Bolt after I got the offer on the new barrel blank, it was kind of a no brainer . Course now I have both but I still pick the Grendel up more often than the 308. Kind of like that fancy old sports car that you just can’t get rid of even though there are other options

 

[dukeboy_318]

When I started looking for a one gun for deer and coyote, in the AR15 platform, I was going to go with the Grendel. I talked to Monty at Centurion Arms, he told me to check the 6.8. I did, and liked what I saw. Back then there were better bullet options for the 6.8.
Fast forward to when my son asked about building a deer rifle. The Grendel had more ammo availability.
Currently what I am seeing is the 6.8 is the less expensive option to reload for. If you can find components. Grendel brass was about 30-40% more expensive than 6.8 about a year ago. Haven’t bought bullets for either recently. I loaded up on those a couple of years ago.
As I told my son, for hunting southern Indiana either is fine. If you want to shoot past 500 yards go with the Grendel.

So here’s the thing with the brass issue, it’s a bit cheaper to buy 7.62x39 bass and shove it through a 6.5 Grendel full sizing die, make sure it’s well lubed. Been doing it for 11 years now and while not as cheap as say 5.56 brass, it’s definitely cheaper than new 6.5 Grendel brass. The other big downside is while initially cheaper per case, the case life is significantly less. So I only load the former 7.62x39 brass for minimum charges for plinking cheaply and use the lightest bullets I can find, usually around 100 grain

 

[frenchiectfd2203]

I have a Grendel sitting, has for years. Never shot it. When spikes started making them I picked one up thinking I’d branch out. Never picked up the niche for them.

 

[Basher]

So here’s the thing with the brass issue, it’s a bit cheaper to buy 7.62x39 bass and shove it through a 6.5 Grendel full sizing die, make sure it’s well lubed. Been doing it for 11 years now and while not as cheap as say 5.56 brass, it’s definitely cheaper than new 6.5 Grendel brass. The other big downside is while initially cheaper per case, the case life is significantly less. So I only load the former 7.62x39 brass for minimum charges for plinking cheaply and use the lightest bullets I can find, usually around 100 grain

Not sure what everyone here considers “cheap,” but Starline runs about 65¢/case new from several places lately. If you’re not running things super hot, you should be able to squeeze at LEAST 6-8 loadings per case, and likely more. I consider that relatively cheap, but I’m also used to $1/case or more for Hornady and Lapua so… :shrug:

 

[DadSmith]

What are the best made extractors for 6.5 Grendel/7.62x39mm?
I've got to pick up a few because I'm getting close to failure by round count on my Grendel.

I'm wondering if a dual extractor spring bolt could be made for 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39mm?
I'm thinking maybe it would take stress off just the one and better performance. Or would it be more parts to repair, maintenance, and replace?

 

[Chalky]

What are the best made extractors for 6.5 Grendel/7.62x39mm?
I've got to pick up a few because I'm getting close to failure by round count on my Grendel.

I would consider one from REXUS/six five outfitters. Can't say if they are the best based on experience or usage yet, but what I purchased after some research:

SixFive AR15 Improved 6.5 Grendel / 6mm ARC Extractor

SixFive AR15 Improved 6.5 Grendel / 6mm ARC Extractor

www.sixfiveoutfitters.com

 

[edwea]

I would consider one from REXUS/six five outfitters. Can't say if they are the best based on experience or usage yet, but what I purchased after some research:

SixFive AR15 Improved 6.5 Grendel / 6mm ARC Extractor

SixFive AR15 Improved 6.5 Grendel / 6mm ARC Extractor

www.sixfiveoutfitters.com

Wow, six five has really stepped up their game. Last time I checked them, they only offered barrels in 3 lengths and bolts. I have one of their bolts, not sure if it has their improved extractor. Judging my brass I'd say probably not.

 

[dukeboy_318]

What are the best made extractors for 6.5 Grendel/7.62x39mm?
I've got to pick up a few because I'm getting close to failure by round count on my Grendel.

I'm wondering if a dual extractor spring bolt could be made for 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39mm?
I'm thinking maybe it would take stress off just the one and better performance. Or would it be more parts to repair, maintenance, and replace?

Dang how many rounds is that?! I’ve got several thousand through mine and you can barely tell it

 

[dukeboy_318]

I have a Grendel sitting, has for years. Never shot it. When spikes started making them I picked one up thinking I’d branch out. Never picked up the niche for them.

Wanna sell lol

 

[frenchiectfd2203]

Wanna sell lol

It’s on marketplace