32ACP / 7.65 Browning is dead (Not just dying)

[Squid556]

This thread is really making me want another Kel Tec P32.

I want to enjoy .32 Auto more but in the pocket gun world .380 Auto just makes much more sense.

And that is what killed .32 Auto.

 

[700 LTR 223]

Never thought I would own a 32 auto but was in Muncie in 2022 and in the gun store case was a 1969 Walther PPK/S with box and even an almost full box of old Federal ammo. Left the store and but had to stop by again before leaving and took it home with me. Possibly the best shooting pocket pistol I ever owned.

 

[Sigblitz]

I have the 1st gen Tomcat with the case, not sold in the US. And plenty of 32.

 

[Bassat]

This thread is really making me want another Kel Tec P32.

I want to enjoy .32 Auto more but in the pocket gun world .380 Auto just makes much more sense.

And that is what killed .32 Auto.

Makes sense from what point of view? I don't buy .380, but can't believe .380 is cheaper than .32ACP. Ballistically, the .32 ACP is a better performer than .380.

Assuming you are using said firearm for self-defense:
1.) Shot placement is the most important factor in bullet performance. (any caliber)
2.) Penetration is the 2nd most important factor in bullet performance. (gotta have enough, don't want too much)
3.) Expansion is a really distant third most important factor in bullet performance (in mouse calibers like .25, .32, .380)

Assuming shot placement is IDEAL.
Nobody makes a .380 round that reliably EXPANDS at any worthwhile PENETRATION depth. (hand-loaders excepted)
That leaves you counting totally on penetration, which means totally relying on BALL ammunition.
.380 is way more prone to OVER-PENETRATION than .32ACP, when shooting the above mentioned BALL ammunition.
.32ACP is manufactured in several flavors that offer adequate penetration to get the job done.

I carry/shoot a 2.7" barrel Keltec P32. This gun, using FIOCCHI 73 grain ball ammunition, which reliably penetrates about 16" of ballistic gelatin, with NO expansion. In .380: Corbon 90g, Federal HS 90gr, and Federal 99gr HST all severely over-penetrate with absolutely no expansion. Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Silver Tip, and Winchester PDX1 all nicely expand, but don't penetrate nearly far enough to count. It is my well-considered opinion that .380 was developed as a cartridge for those who wanted a less noisy, lower recoiling 9mm. Much like .40 was developed for folks who didn't want the noise and recoil of 10mm or .45 ACP. The .40 has proven itself a less than stellar round. The .380's continued popularity, despite its shortcomings is more than a tad puzzling, to me anyway.

 

[indyartisan]

The .32 ACP, a chambering for elegant weapons of a more civilized time.

 

[Squid556]

Makes sense from what point of view? I don't buy .380, but can't believe .380 is cheaper than .32ACP. Ballistically, the .32 ACP is a better performer than .380.

Assuming you are using said firearm for self-defense:
1.) Shot placement is the most important factor in bullet performance. (any caliber)
2.) Penetration is the 2nd most important factor in bullet performance. (gotta have enough, don't want too much)
3.) Expansion is a really distant third most important factor in bullet performance (in mouse calibers like .25, .32, .380)

Assuming shot placement is IDEAL.
Nobody makes a .380 round that reliably EXPANDS at any worthwhile PENETRATION depth. (hand-loaders excepted)
That leaves you counting totally on penetration, which means totally relying on BALL ammunition.
.380 is way more prone to OVER-PENETRATION than .32ACP, when shooting the above mentioned BALL ammunition.
.32ACP is manufactured in several flavors that offer adequate penetration to get the job done.

I carry/shoot a 2.7" barrel Keltec P32. This gun, using FIOCCHI 73 grain ball ammunition, which reliably penetrates about 16" of ballistic gelatin, with NO expansion. In .380: Corbon 90g, Federal HS 90gr, and Federal 99gr HST all severely over-penetrate with absolutely no expansion. Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Silver Tip, and Winchester PDX1 all nicely expand, but don't penetrate nearly far enough to count. It is my well-considered opinion that .380 was developed as a cartridge for those who wanted a less noisy, lower recoiling 9mm. Much like .40 was developed for folks who didn't want the noise and recoil of 10mm or .45 ACP. The .40 has proven itself a less than stellar round. The .380's continued popularity, despite its shortcomings is more than a tad puzzling, to me anyway.

Respectfully, I think you're misinformed.

To start, currently from SG ammo price of 32 auto FMJ from S&B is $27.95 while 380 auto FMJ from S&B is $17.95 per box.

Secondly, again with respect, its just not true that "nobody makes a 380 defensive load that doesn't expand / penetrate". I will link lucky gunners test but post a pic for the lazies in the thread

Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data

Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.

www.luckygunner.com

You are for sure right that the results of JHP being kinda terrible. I've never liked how erratic results can be. FMJ absolutely penetrates 22+ inches in tests and some care about that , some don't.

In an effort to curb the under / over penetration issues with 380 I just carry underwoods 68 grain XD bullet. Fills FBI requirements while giving consistent results.

380 ACP 68gr. Xtreme Defender Solid Monolithic Hunting & Self Defense Ammo

Underwood Ammo offers the most comprehensive and innovative Lehigh Defense™ Supersonic Lead Free Handgun Ammo for personal defense & hunting. Shop now .380 ACP Copper ammo with Solid Monolithic.

underwoodammo.com

Lastly, the reason I made the previous post was basically for these reasons. 380 is cheaper, more available, better performing and fits in the same size handguns, although that P32 is a bit lighter than even an LCP.

 

[BigMoose]

Respectfully, I think you're misinformed.

To start, currently from SG ammo price of 32 auto FMJ from S&B is $27.95 while 380 auto FMJ from S&B is $17.95 per box.

32 (7.65 Browning) and 25 (6.35 Browning) is getting harder and harder to find too. It wasn't much in evidence at the gun show today, I can't remember the last time I saw ether in a big box store. Its pretty much an order it sort of deal.

 

[Leadeye]

The .32 ACP, a chambering for elegant weapons of a more civilized time.

Very nice!

 

[2tonic]

I read this thread.
Then I went and opened my gunsafe.

My Seecamp yawned at me.

 

[Leadeye]

I read this thread.
Then I went and opened my gunsafe.

My Seecamp yawned at me.

You should buy a Colt 1903.

 

[Mgderf]

You should buy a Colt 1903.

I love mine.

 

[Leadeye]

Like Indyartisan said, the 1903 was an elegant gun from an earlier age.

I have always wanted one of these though.

 

[2tonic]

You should buy a Colt 1903.

Had one.
All my 1911's made fun of it.

Can't have discord like that in my safe.
It's not good for morale.

 

[BigMoose]

Had one.
All my 1911's made fun of it.

Can't have discord like that in my safe.
It's not good for morale.

Then get a baby browning... so they have a new target.

 

[2tonic]

Then get a baby browning... so they have a new target.

View attachment 322312

Don't encourage them!

 

[Bassat]

Respectfully, I think you're misinformed.

To start, currently from SG ammo price of 32 auto FMJ from S&B is $27.95 while 380 auto FMJ from S&B is $17.95 per box.

Secondly, again with respect, its just not true that "nobody makes a 380 defensive load that doesn't expand / penetrate". I will link lucky gunners test but post a pic for the lazies in the thread
View attachment 322243

Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data

Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.

www.luckygunner.com

You are for sure right that the results of JHP being kinda terrible. I've never liked how erratic results can be. FMJ absolutely penetrates 22+ inches in tests and some care about that , some don't.

In an effort to curb the under / over penetration issues with 380 I just carry underwoods 68 grain XD bullet. Fills FBI requirements while giving consistent results.

380 ACP 68gr. Xtreme Defender Solid Monolithic Hunting & Self Defense Ammo

Underwood Ammo offers the most comprehensive and innovative Lehigh Defense™ Supersonic Lead Free Handgun Ammo for personal defense & hunting. Shop now .380 ACP Copper ammo with Solid Monolithic.

underwoodammo.com

Lastly, the reason I made the previous post was basically for these reasons. 380 is cheaper, more available, better performing and fits in the same size handguns, although that P32 is a bit lighter than even an LCP.

Thanks for posting this. I believe I am not so much mis-informed as under-informed. In the first place, I made no claim about the cost of either ammunition, only posting my belief that .380 MUST be more expensive than .32. I will admit to paying $28/50 rounds of FIOCCHI 73g ball ammo, which makes me wrong on that count. That IS expensive. I was looking at the same Lucky Gunner tables you are looking at. To my eye, the .380 over-penetrates - A LOT. That matters to me, not so much to others. Sure, the .380 JHP ammo is all over the place. The .32 JHP is even worse. That is why I prefer .32 ACP ball. I am glad you are happy with .380. My guess is more folks agree with you than agree with me. If .32 were more popular, it would be less expensive.
P.S. My most frequent carry is the Kahr CM9. My house gun is a G21g4. I use 147g HST and 230g HST, respectively.

 

[Squid556]

Thanks for posting this. I believe I am not so much mis-informed as under-informed. In the first place, I made no claim about the cost of either ammunition, only posting my belief that .380 MUST be more expensive than .32. I will admit to paying $28/50 rounds of FIOCCHI 73g ball ammo, which makes me wrong on that count. That IS expensive. I was looking at the same Lucky Gunner tables you are looking at. To my eye, the .380 over-penetrates - A LOT. That matters to me, not so much to others. Sure, the .380 JHP ammo is all over the place. The .32 JHP is even worse. That is why I prefer .32 ACP ball. I am glad you are happy with .380. My guess is more folks agree with you than agree with me. If .32 were more popular, it would be less expensive.
P.S. My most frequent carry is the Kahr CM9. My house gun is a G21g4. I use 147g HST and 230g HST, respectively.

Well I would think 32 should be cheaper. Given the lesser amount of materials. But I think cost for ammo like that is more determined from supply and demand. Companies can probably just sell a lot more of one than the other which drives price down.

In my mind when talking handguns for defensive roles, I tend to lump 22/25/32 in the same camp from tests I’ve seen done.

Although I remember reading something about the German military in the 40s allowing 32 for military use, but not 25.

38 special and 380 live in their own sort of kinda good kind bad performance. Neither seems to be as good as the main service calibers but sometimes they are adequate.

By no means am I crapping on 32. I actually like it a lot. As someone said it’s the gentleman’s caliber If this thread keeps up I’m going to have to buy a Colt 1903.

 

[edwea]

Nobody sell your 32's yet. You'll be two steps ahead when SAAMI recognizes my new cartridge, the 30 Super Carry Short.

 

[Squid556]

Had one.
All my 1911's made fun of it.

Can't have discord like that in my safe.
It's not good for morale.

I’m surprised at your results…..

I would have expected to open the door only to find a 1911 putting its guide rod into 1903s ejection port.

I’m under the impression that’s how baby browning .25s came about.

 

[Bassat]

I’m surprised at your results…..

I would have expected to open the door only to find a 1911 putting its guide rod into 1903s ejection port.

I’m under the impression that’s how baby browning .25s came about.

Ejection port is an exit. Can't make no babies that way. If they are making baby .25s, wouldn't it have to up the feed ramp, into the chamber? Just random speculation, I actually have no idea how baby .25s are made.