.30 Carbine Never Exists: Squids Alternate History

[TheJoker]

A world where the M1 Carbine doesn't exist?

 

[TheJoker]

How about a Remington 8 with the detachable mags in .300 Savage as a alternate also?

On my always-wanted-not-yet-pressed-bid list! The Remington 8 has always fascinated me. I just recently started watching the .300 Savage variants of the 8 and 81.

 

[Mongo59]

On my always-wanted-not-yet-pressed-bid list! The Remington 8 has always fascinated me. I just recently started watching the .300 Savage variants of the 8 and 81.

JMB design. I have an 8 and my brother has an 81. Wonderful guns.

When you get one you need to make one of these to take off the barrel shroud.

 

[Squid556]

Looking further into it. The 5.7 Johnson (30 carb neck to 22) which came along some 20 years after 30 carbine adoption..... Has nearly identical ballistics to the 22 K Hornet. If nothing else I think it supports the thesis.

I really think Johnson's concept and design was good. Just wrong timing it would seem. Ideally the 5.7 johnson would have been around for the trials phase but that of course would have required the 30 carbine be created much ealier.

I forgot all about the 218 bee. It came out before the trials in 1938. I suppose a rimless variant of that could have been used too. Although its got some nasty case geometry left over from its early lever action lineage.

5.7 Johnson - 50 gr @ 2700
22 K hornet - 50 gr @ 2700
218 Bee - 45 gr @ 2800

What's better is I actually managed to find both 5.7 Johnson and 218 Bee in my cartridge collection. Here's the two compared to 30 Carbine.



Neat info I found on the 5.7 Johnson as well

5.7 Johnson and M1 Carbine

I just found this forum yesterday when searching 5.7 Johnson (5.7 MMJ and .22 Spitfire) and found the thread below fascinating. However it was requested I not revive a thread years old. So here is a new one regarding the same subject. First, the 5.7 MMJ was designed by Melvin Johnson for a 40...

www.milsurps.com

And even a decent video of someone shooting a Johnson carbine.

Age Verification - NRA

www.americanrifleman.org

 

[Mongo59]

Cracked neck on the middle cartridge...

 

[Squid556]

Cracked neck on the middle cartridge...

I know...
Terrible that the only example I've ever seen is in poor shape. Guessing it needed annealed and never got it. This one is 1943 production carbine brass and seems to have been reloaded at least a couple times.

But I'm glad I ended up with it somehow and can share it with folks.

 

[Mongo59]

We, the public, are fickled. We get something in our head and it just stays there until something more enticing comes along.

Take the 300 Blackout, absolutely no one used it when it's name was 300 Whisper, but Blackout sounds so cool. They made it to improve on pistol rounds in machine pistols to clear rooms in urban combat, now people want to shoot 500 yards with the stuff. Yes, you can try, but so could you with a .22LR. Even if you can or can't, does that effect the purpose of the round? Will we give up the M1A SOCOM because we have 300 Blackout? Lord, I hope not.

Also we can look at the perception of the PSG and Dragunov. We tend to call it a "sniper rifle" but all it was designed to do is reach out a little further than than AK using 7.62x39. I was caught up in the hype and spent the cash to get one. I could get better groups with a Marlin 336 in 30-30 than that hunk of crap. No it was not "shot out", it was new production, and no where near the accuracy as the M1 Garand with iron sights.

I could go on and on like people thinking they can make impact craters on the moon with a 6.5 Creedmore and so on but the message is hype is hype. Buy the gun, not the story.

Did America screw up with the Carbine? Sure, I believe so, but the loyal following won't. Now or ever...

 

[Squid556]

We, the public, are fickled. We get something in our head and it just stays there until something more enticing comes along.

Take the 300 Blackout, absolutely no one used it when it's name was 300 Whisper, but Blackout sounds so cool. They made it to improve on pistol rounds in machine pistols to clear rooms in urban combat, now people want to shoot 500 yards with the stuff. Yes, you can try, but so could you with a .22LR. Even if you can or can't, does that effect the purpose of the round? Will we give up the M1A SOCOM because we have 300 Blackout? Lord, I hope not.

Also we can look at the perception of the PSG and Dragunov. We tend to call it a "sniper rifle" but all it was designed to do is reach out a little further than than AK using 7.62x39. I was caught up in the hype and spent the cash to get one. I could get better groups with a Marlin 336 in 30-30 than that hunk of crap. No it was not "shot out", it was new production, and no where near the accuracy as the M1 Garand with iron sights.

I could go on and on like people thinking they can make impact craters on the moon with a 6.5 Creedmore and so on but the message is hype is hype. Buy the gun, not the story.

Did America screw up with the Carbine? Sure, I believe so, but the loyal following won't. Now or ever...

I’d say the PDW concept that the carbine filled… in its day was a pretty big deal. But as time as progressed and our primary rifles got lighter and smaller … that gap gets pretty small. Hard to justify anything smaller and less capable than an M4 carbine for rear line troops.

Last year socom bought a bunch of PDWs in the form of the Sig Rattler. But I don’t think they plan on mass deployment of them like m1 carbines to rear line troops.

Before that it was NATO wanting PDWs with the P90. But again I don’t think they have issued en masse to cooks and artillery and whatnot.

Really the more I think about the different roles and cartridges and platforms the more it makes me appreciate the M4 and 5.56. It’s nearly as handy as the M1 while being a lot more capable.

 

[Michigan Slim]

My daughter described my carbine as a 1022 on steroids. About right. Then she kept it ....

 

[Mongo59]

My daughter described my carbine as a 1022 on steroids. About right. Then she kept it ....

My dad always said the worse thing they ever did was put a giggle switch on the M1 carbine. He acted like he would rather ride the bull at Gilley's...

 

[Mongo59]

When I say fickled, do you know how to get an American to add one or two more zeros to the end of a check? Just tell them they can't have it...

 

[BigMoose]

Looking further into it. The 5.7 Johnson (30 carb neck to 22) which came along some 20 years after 30 carbine adoption..... Has nearly identical ballistics to the 22 K Hornet. If nothing else I think it supports the thesis.

I really think Johnson's concept and design was good. Just wrong timing it would seem. Ideally the 5.7 johnson would have been around for the trials phase but that of course would have required the 30 carbine be created much ealier.

I forgot all about the 218 bee. It came out before the trials in 1938. I suppose a rimless variant of that could have been used too. Although its got some nasty case geometry left over from its early lever action lineage.

5.7 Johnson - 50 gr @ 2700
22 K hornet - 50 gr @ 2700
218 Bee - 45 gr @ 2800

What's better is I actually managed to find both 5.7 Johnson and 218 Bee in my cartridge collection. Here's the two compared to 30 Carbine.



Neat info I found on the 5.7 Johnson as well

5.7 Johnson and M1 Carbine

I just found this forum yesterday when searching 5.7 Johnson (5.7 MMJ and .22 Spitfire) and found the thread below fascinating. However it was requested I not revive a thread years old. So here is a new one regarding the same subject. First, the 5.7 MMJ was designed by Melvin Johnson for a 40...

www.milsurps.com

And even a decent video of someone shooting a Johnson carbine.

Age Verification - NRA

www.americanrifleman.org

As it was stated, the test specified a minimum of 27 cal.

I am curious what ballistics and performance 30 carbine necked down to 27 would have given. I don't think ordinance could have been convinced to do 22 back then. But .275 or .27, maybe.

 

[Squid556]

As it was stated, the test specified a minimum of 27 cal.

I am curious what ballistics and performance 30 carbine necked down to 27 would have given. I don't think ordinance could have been convinced to do 22 back then. But .275 or .27, maybe.

That caliber restirction I think really hindered what could have been. Although I agree that 1940s military understanding of ballistics wasn't ready for small caliber high velocity yet.

You got me thinking about similar powered 27 caliber cartridges that could have worked. There are surprisingly few 27 caliber cartridges near 900 ft/lbs that I could even find.

Here is the only one I could find. This came along in the 80s but I suppose its conceivable that a rimless trails variant of this could have been created. Its a 22 hornet case necked straight to 27. These numbers are kind of neutered due to the 10 inch test barrel and purposeful weak loading.

If I had to guess, in the m1 carbine we might be able to see a 90 gr. .277 bullet doing near 2200 fps. That would extend the range slightly although I doubt we would see any more impressive terminal performance than a 30 caliber bullet.

 

[BigMoose]

That caliber restirction I think really hindered what could have been. Although I agree that 1940s military understanding of ballistics wasn't ready for small caliber high velocity yet.

You got me thinking about similar powered 27 caliber cartridges that could have worked. There are surprisingly few 27 caliber cartridges near 900 ft/lbs that I could even find.

Here is the only one I could find. This came along in the 80s but I suppose its conceivable that a rimless trails variant of this could have been created. Its a 22 hornet case necked straight to 27. These numbers are kind of neutered due to the 10 inch test barrel and purposeful weak loading.

If I had to guess, in the m1 carbine we might be able to see a 90 gr. .277 bullet doing near 2200 fps. That would extend the range slightly although I doubt we would see any more impressive terminal performance than a 30 caliber bullet.

Curious. If memory serves Winchester just took the .32 Winchester Self-Loading and made a more modern version of it, when it came to the 30 Carbine.

 

[Squid556]

Curious. If memory serves Winchester just took the .32 Winchester Self-Loading and made a more modern version of it, when it came to the 30 Carbine.

View attachment 302057

You’d be right. That info is actually in the original post. Not sure why, but that, and the info about deleting rims got overlooked by most.

 

[Squid556]

Was browsing though the 1981 edition of shooters Bible. Actually managed to find where Iver Johnson offered a 5.7mm Johnson carbine commercially.

 

[vtnewbie]

Fair warning I've got a long one for you fine folks today, but I think you'll find it worthwhile.

Recently I was thinking about the .30 Carbine cartridge and how it came to be. I understand the concept behind the light rifle trials in the early 40s and it makes sense that the .30 Carbine was developed given the knowledge at the time. Time proved the M1 Carbine and .30 Carbine round to be a decent pair with a respectable service life.

However.....I have a theory that the .30 Carbine cartridge could have never (and maybe shouldn't have) existed.
View attachment 300818
To add background, the army light rifle trial was set to arm rear line and non infantry troops with a more effective weapon than the 1911 pistol. Imagine being a truck driver or artillery crew and having the choice between a 2 pound handgun or a 9 lb battle rifle..... Handgun is mostly useless and a rifle is usually too much burden. You'll be more than happy to take the 5 lb handy carbine. So the "personal defense weapon" concept I think is solid and the 6 million carbines made, proves that. They were well liked then and still highly sought after today. Just think of how much fun you could have with 6 million of these little guys
View attachment 300819
View attachment 300820 View attachment 300821
However the elephant in the room is its compromise cartridge... 3x the energy and 2x the range of .45 ACP. Yet 1/3 power and 1/3 range of .30-06. It is very high drag, slowing quickly with steep trajectory. It more or less just pokes 30 cal holes past 100 yds in FMJ form.

.30 Carbine left. 5.56 NATO right.
View attachment 300824
View attachment 300825
Winchester formulated .30 Carbine from an existing cartridge called .32 Win Self Loading. It closely fit the requirements needed for the trials and was relatively quick to make work. Delete the rim, change the bullet diameter and presto you now have a modern magnum pistol caliber similar-ish to 357 magnum ballistics.

However....... I propose that if the Army hadn't had the .27 caliber minimum trial requirements.... We could have had a much more effective outcome!
View attachment 300826
22-250, 5.56, 22 K Hornet, 22 Hornet

Then the Hero arrives....22 K Hornet! This cartridge came out in 1940 and was a much needed face lift from the ugly but loved 22 hornet.

-It can push a 50 grain bullet at 2700 fps
-it would have added at least 100 yards of effective range to .30 carbine.
-It is the same length as .30 carbine
-it is a similar pressure to .30 carbine.
-a rimless variant would fit in the M1 carbine.
-In FMJ it would have been terminally superior to 30 carbine.
-ammunition would be much lighter

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that a variant of the K hornet could have been chosen during the M1 carbines development.

The K hornet is AWFULLY similar to the 5.56 which of course was adopted 20 years later. Which spawned a whole new world standard of small caliber high velocity infantry arms.

If .22 K Hornet could have been adopted and the small caliber high velocity concept proved earlier....... We may have never even seen the .308 battle rifle generation of the 50s and 60s. This pains me to say as I love .308 battle rifles. But theoretically if .22 K hornet was utilized in WW2, the M14 probably would never existed. Maybe the M16 and 5.56 development would look different even. Who knows?! There's a whole ripple effect of changes that would spawn from us getting basically diet 5.56 carbines decades before 5.56 became standard.

Anyways thanks for reading my insane ramblings. Hope it gets the gears goin in your heads as it has mine.

Melvin Johnson created the .22MMJ based off the .30 Carbine case. Ballistics were close to .223

 

[Squid556]

Just so happened to be reading the March 2023 American Rifleman. Found this article with some worthwhile supplemental information

Whole page


Zoomed in, broken up to 3 pieces.

 

[Disposable Heart]

I think the idea of the K-Hornet would be great, but the angle of the shoulder would preclude it from any military service. WAY too sharp and with it being subjected to dirt and grime, that sharp shoulder would gum up ricky tick.

I do think you're onto it with a rimless K-hornet style cartridge. Maybe bulk up the webbing in the case, ease the shoulder out to allow for more case capacity and bingo, PDW heaven.

You're right on the ballistics SIMILARITY (not exact) of .223. I think the Hornet cartridge is a great round, hampered only by old barrels (.223 instead of .224) diameters and bullet weights.

But all of this is just waxing philosophy: The army at the time was in the cult of .30 cal. They woke up, peed through .30 cal holes, ate .30 cal diameter cereal, wrote with .30 cal dimeter pencils and gave their wives .30 cal sized diamonds on anniversaries. I think they would have just gone with a lighter weight and cheaper .45 ACP subgun before switching away from .30 cal (m3 Grease gun, but better ergos?).

Man, that's a lot of cals. I need to go for a walk...