2009 Toyota Corolla No Crank Won't Start issue

[foszoe]

Today wife was leaving for a funeral and it wouldn't crank, wouldn't start. Sooo...

I shifted to Neutral and car wouldn't start
I tested the battery, 12V, but I put it on a slow charge anyway.
I tested the battery to starter wire, 12V.
I checked all the fuses under the hood and in the passenger compartment. They are all fine.
I pulled the starter relay. 12V activates the switch, and when switch is closed there is continuity across the switch.
I turned the key to on and jumped the relay switch, the engine cranked. I turned the key to start and the engine started.

All of that has led me to believe the following items are fine. Battery, Starter and Solenoid, Relay, Ignition switch mostly because when I turned the key to start it fired right up. That leaves only one other item I can think of, the neutral safety switch.

Is there anything else I could be missing?

Rant time. Designing a car so that you have to rip out the center console, radio, heater controls, gearshift head and gearshift cover to get to a starter relay is horse crap.

Anyway appreciate any other ideas. I would hate to have to start it up and take it to a shop for something I am simply not thinking about.

 

[indyblue]

Manual or auto? If manual check clutch switch.

Check the grounds?

Did you check for 12V at the starter relay which would verify your hypothesis for the neutral switch? Or bypass (jumper) the neutral switch to isolate further.

If bypassing neutral switch fixes - solved, else likely an intermittent/dying starter relay.

Corvettte (C6's) starters are a known trouble item because the bakelite terminal housing gets brittle from the exhaust manifold heat and crumbles easily after years resulting in bad starter connections.

rant: Newer cars have so many nanny/safety mechanisms it's a wonder any of us survived the old days. I originally wanted my Firebird to be a manual because I was taught in drivers ed that in case of a stall on train a crossing put it in gear and crank it over to move off the tracks (no clutch switches back then). I also like that in case of dead battery it is simple and easy to push start it. /rant

 

[foszoe]

Manual or auto? If manual check clutch switch.

Check the grounds?

Did you check for 12V at the starter relay which would verify your hypothesis for the neutral switch? Or bypass (jumper) the neutral switch to isolate further.

If bypassing neutral switch fixes - solved, else likely an intermittent/dying starter relay.

Corvettte (C6's) starters are a known trouble item because the bakelite terminal housing gets brittle from the exhaust manifold heat and crumbles easily after years resulting in bad starter connections.

rant: Newer cars have so many nanny/safety mechanisms it's a wonder any of us survived the old days. I originally wanted my Firebird to be a manual because I was taught in drivers ed that in case of a stall on train a crossing put it in gear and crank it over to move off the tracks (no clutch switches back then). I also like that in case of dead battery it is simple and easy to push start it. /rant

Its an automatic

I did check the starter ground plus starting it made me pretty confident it is on the ignition switch side of the relay.

If you mean the ground in the relay socket, haven't done that yet.

My thinking is

test the coil side of the relay. If I am not getting a 12V supply when the ignition switch is in the start position then I have a wiring issue between the switch and the relay. If I don't have a ground on the coil side of the relay the neutral switch is the issue. It COULD be the ignition switch but since the engine cranked when the ignition switch was and and then started when the ignition switch was turned to start I believe its ok. Could be wrong though. If I do get a ground then I might have to reconsider the ignition switch itself including the wiring from the ignition switch to the relay panel.

 

[foszoe]

Dropped the cover to the ignition switch and now the relay is cycling. Bunch of extra wires in there from when we had a remote start installed 7 years ago. If it has something to do with the splices for that install, I think I am going to jumper the relay to start the car and drive it to the dealer. At least I will save the tow charge

 

[d.kaufman]

Dropped the cover to the ignition switch and now the relay is cycling. Bunch of extra wires in there from when we had a remote start installed 7 years ago. If it has something to do with the splices for that install, I think I am going to jumper the relay to start the car and drive it to the dealer. At least I will save the tow charge

Remote start is more than likely your issue. Especially if a half ass install was done and they used scotch locks to tie the wiring together

 

[BigRed]

Today wife was leaving for a funeral and it wouldn't crank, wouldn't start. Sooo...

I shifted to Neutral and car wouldn't start
I tested the battery, 12V, but I put it on a slow charge anyway.
I tested the battery to starter wire, 12V.
I checked all the fuses under the hood and in the passenger compartment. They are all fine.
I pulled the starter relay. 12V activates the switch, and when switch is closed there is continuity across the switch.
I turned the key to on and jumped the relay switch, the engine cranked. I turned the key to start and the engine started.

All of that has led me to believe the following items are fine. Battery, Starter and Solenoid, Relay, Ignition switch mostly because when I turned the key to start it fired right up. That leaves only one other item I can think of, the neutral safety switch.

Is there anything else I could be missing?

Rant time. Designing a car so that you have to rip out the center console, radio, heater controls, gearshift head and gearshift cover to get to a starter relay is horse crap.

Anyway appreciate any other ideas. I would hate to have to start it up and take it to a shop for something I am simply not thinking about.

The Model T was much better...could crank that thing right over. Even the Model A kept it.

Damned modern cars!

Hell, most modern cars with a manual transmission have a ******* kill switch on the clutch to prevent a push start.

 

[foszoe]

Remote start is more than likely your issue. Especially if a half ass install was done and they used scotch locks to tie the wiring together

We did have it done at the Toyota dealer in the hopes it would be done right and it was several years ago so its worked but wife and I were talking and there were some times as recently as last week where it didn't start on the first try with remote start. We had the dog in the car and it shuts down every 10 min so I kept restarting it to keep the a/c on for him and it didn't work a couple of times. Finally I got in and started it and left the key in it.

The splices are all wrapped in foam and I am not wanting to rip into all of that.

The only other component I haven't really tested is the neutral safety switch or transmission position sensor whatever its called these days

 

[foszoe]

The Model T was much better...could crank that thing right over. Even the Model A kept it.

Damned modern cars!

Hell, most modern cars with a manual transmission have a ******* kill switch on the clutch to prevent a push start.

O I can crank it over and start it and drive it.....i just have to remove the radio and heater out of the center console to do it. I don't think Model Ts had radios so maybe I am back to a Model T oyota.

She bought this car before we were married.....We are not buying another Toyota. Between my Honda Accord and this Toyota, Honda is much easier to do routine stuff. Of course the Ford Truck beats all of them .... so much room in there

 

[indyblue]

While up at the lake two weekends ago the Corvette battery died. We were able to push start it in second gear even though it has a clutch safety switch on it. Not sure how or why it worked but it did!

I knew the battery was weak. It’s one that was in the car when I bought it so had a new one on tap in the garage when I got home.

 

[Jaybird1980]

We did have it done at the Toyota dealer in the hopes it would be done right and it was several years ago so its worked but wife and I were talking and there were some times as recently as last week where it didn't start on the first try with remote start. We had the dog in the car and it shuts down every 10 min so I kept restarting it to keep the a/c on for him and it didn't work a couple of times. Finally I got in and started it and left the key in it.

The splices are all wrapped in foam and I am not wanting to rip into all of that.

The only other component I haven't really tested is the neutral safety switch or transmission position sensor whatever its called these days

They won't warranty it anyways, so you may as well open it up and look for the green crusties.

And yes those scotch locks are the worst.

 

[Jaybird1980]

While up at the lake two weekends ago the Corvette battery died. We were able to push start it in second gear even though it has a clutch safety switch on it. Not sure how or why it worked but it did!

I knew the battery was weak. It’s one that was in the car when I bought it so had a new one on tap in the garage when I got home.

The clutch switch only shuts of the starter circuit not the ignition. That's why you can still push start it. It just keeps you from starting it in gear with the key without the clutch.

 

[BigRed]

O I can crank it over and start it and drive it.....i just have to remove the radio and heater out of the center console to do it. I don't think Model Ts had radios so maybe I am back to a Model T oyota.

She bought this car before we were married.....We are not buying another Toyota. Between my Honda Accord and this Toyota, Honda is much easier to do routine stuff. Of course the Ford Truck beats all of them .... so much room in there

Truth!

 

[indyblue]

We did have it done at the Toyota dealer in the hopes it would be done right and it was several years ago so its worked but wife and I were talking and there were some times as recently as last week where it didn't start on the first try with remote start. We had the dog in the car and it shuts down every 10 min so I kept restarting it to keep the a/c on for him and it didn't work a couple of times. Finally I got in and started it and left the key in it.

The splices are all wrapped in foam and I am not wanting to rip into all of that.

The only other component I haven't really tested is the neutral safety switch or transmission position sensor whatever its called these days

Given this new information, I would suspect antitheft system more than wiring issues. Remote start must be able to “fake out“ or bypass the antitheft system.

At least that’s what our 2000 Grand Am did when I installed my own remote start kit. It had a provision to deal with the antitheft system.

 

[foszoe]

They won't warranty it anyways, so you may as well open it up and look for the green crusties.

And yes those scotch locks are the worst.

Actually I used it to verify I had found the right wire with my test light that sends the signal from the ignition switch when turned to start, which to me, means the ignition set up should be fine.

So kinda lost now.

1st circuit. Battery to Starter is fine and battery to switch in relay to starter is fine because I can jumper the relay switch sockets and start the car.

2nd circuit. Battery - Ignition Switch is fine because in the start position I get a 12V source from the Ignition Switch. This should go to the Neutral Safety Switch then to the relay which tests fine because there is continuity across the switch when 12V power is applied.
. Well, Relay socket is fine NOW because I can hear the relay clicking AFTER I dropped the ignition switch cover (didn't hear it clicking before) AND the coil side has a V source (test light) and ground. I guess I could check the V source with a Multimeter.

But also running out of time as she wants the car drivable ASAP

Maybe i should buy a code reader

 

[Ark]

Have you directly jumped that neutral switch yet?

Honestly smells like connection issue in the remote start splicing. Stuff started changing when you took the column cover off and started moving things around.

 

[rem788]

Does the car have anti theft? Look for a theft indicator light in the dash. If it is flashing when you are trying to crank the engine that would indicate an issue with the anti theft system. This might prevent the engine from cranking. Have you tried another key/fob? Sometimes one will not function properly while another will. We had a customer that brought in a car that wouldn't start. The key he left with us worked fine, when he picked it up we discovered his other key was the problem. Sometimes the anti theft will let the engine start then shut the engine off when the correct signal is not received in the correct time frame. If there is an issue with the anti theft a scanner capable of accessing the system would be necessary to trouble shoot.

 

[rem788]

Okay, just saw your response to Jaybird. If the relay is clicking it is probably not antitheft. Check the circuit between the relay and the starter solenoid. There should be 12 volts at the starter solenoid terminal when the key is in the crank position. Less than 12 volts indicates resistance between the relay and the starter or high resistance in the relay. 12 volts present at the starter terminal indicates a problem with the starter/solenoid. Good luck

 

[foszoe]

Have you directly jumped that neutral switch yet?

Honestly smells like connection issue in the remote start splicing. Stuff started changing when you took the column cover off and started moving things around.

Yeah the thing that has me confused though is if I am getting voltage to the relay, then the signal voltage has went through the neutral switch and should be on its way to the starter. BUT i have no understanding of remote start IE is there something that goes from the relay back to something in the remote start wiring before going to the starter.

 

[foszoe]

Does the car have anti theft? Look for a theft indicator light in the dash. If it is flashing when you are trying to crank the engine that would indicate an issue with the anti theft system. This might prevent the engine from cranking. Have you tried another key/fob? Sometimes one will not function properly while another will. We had a customer that brought in a car that wouldn't start. The key he left with us worked fine, when he picked it up we discovered his other key was the problem. Sometimes the anti theft will let the engine start then shut the engine off when the correct signal is not received in the correct time frame. If there is an issue with the anti theft a scanner capable of accessing the system would be necessary to trouble shoot.

I actually tried the spare key wondering the same thing.....but the battery in the spare was dead

 

[Ark]

Yeah the thing that has me confused though is if I am getting voltage to the relay, then the signal voltage has went through the neutral switch and should be on its way to the starter. BUT i have no understanding of remote start IE is there something that goes from the relay back to something in the remote start wiring before going to the starter.

I have no real experience with remote start and how it managed the immobilizer or where it might drop one of the criteria for firing the starter relay.

Could just jiggle the wires and try to start it until you get lucky and notice what part of the harness correlates to not working. The immobilizer is an open question, it may be withholding signal somewhere.