Talk me out of/back into .45 ACP

[ram77]

The tech in the new 9mm rounds makes them do almost as much damage as some 45 so I'd boil it down to what do you shoot best with and what's most functional for carry. However I definitely wouldn't go down to a 22

 

[NKBJ]

.45 bore... Not too big, not too small, be it 1860 or 1960. Probably be the same in 2060.

 

[Hohn]

I think there is a place for the .45 still, even if it costs too much to buy, goes too slow, and really hampers ammo capacity.

I like to pigeon hole the .45 as the round of traditionalist who don't need logic or reason because it was good enough for grand pappy back in 'Nam. Because technology hasn't advanced since 1904.

Some things like a Zippo lighter and a 1911 are "timeless." But is a Zippo better than a modern piezo-ignited butane lighter? Not a chance. Would you carry a Zippo camping instead of that modern lighter? No. The Zippo is for the Marlboro Man wannabe, a guy who probably also carries a 1911.

 

[KJQ6945]

I think there is a place for the .45 still, even if it costs too much to buy, goes too slow, and really hampers ammo capacity.

I like to pigeon hole the .45 as the round of traditionalist who don't need logic or reason because it was good enough for grand pappy back in 'Nam. Because technology hasn't advanced since 1904.

Some things like a Zippo lighter and a 1911 are "timeless." But is a Zippo better than a modern piezo-ignited butane lighter? Not a chance. Would you carry a Zippo camping instead of that modern lighter? No. The Zippo is for the Marlboro Man wannabe, a guy who probably also carries a 1911.

Let the hate out man. Let it out!

 

[VERT]

 

[Hohn]

On a more serious note, I don't trust a .45 to penetrate. Having personally witnessed .45 slugs stopped COLD by a standard 3.5" hard drive, it really made me question the ability of the round when bone or cover is involved.

The best proxy I know of for penetration is something I call 'sectional momentum' which is just sectional density times velocity. Even a hot 230r load at 900 fps is pretty low on sectional momentum about 145 ft-grains per second. (if I'm not botching the units).

Compare that to a 147 gr 9mm at 1020fps, and only 132.6 f-g/sec for sectional momentum.

For reference, here are some other loads I figured up for comparison:

Caliber	Bullet wt (gr)	Sd	Velocity (FPS)	Sectional momentum
.357 SIG	147​	0.167​	1250​	208.75​
.357 SIG	125​	0.142​	1475​	209.45​
10mm Auto	200​	0.179​	1200​	214.8​
10mm Auto	180​	0.161​	1300​	209.3​
10mm Auto	155​	0.138​	1500​	207​
9mm	115​	0.130​	1300​	169​
.40sw	180​	0.161​	1000​	161​
.40sw	155​	0.138​	1300​	179.4​
.45 ACP	230​	0.162​	900​	145.8​
.45 ACP	185​	0.130​	1200​	156​
357mag	158​	0.177​	1475​	261.075​
44mag	300​	0.233​	1300​	302.9​
38spl	158​	0.177​	950​	168.15​
44spl	200​	0.155​	950​	147.25​
9mm	147​	0.130​	1020​	132.6​

Note how .357 Sig, 10mm, and more powerful calibers leave .45 in the dust for penetration. Also, these are some pretty hot loads in their respective calibers.

ETA: I'm pleasantly surprised that pasting in that table from Apple's "Numbers" apps worked so well!

 

[KJQ6945]

I call

9mm and .45, per your chart are the most ineffectual calibers known to mankind. 4 out of 5 graveyards dispute your evidence.

 

[Hohn]

I call

9mm and .45, per your chart are the most ineffectual calibers known to mankind. 4 out of 5 graveyards dispute your evidence.

If science was the only basis for military selection of calibers, you might have a point, sir. But it's not, and you don't.

The point is that a measly hard drive (not even in the computer, but bare hard drive) stopped the .45 slug COLD. It didn't even get through all the platters in the middle, never mind the back part of the case.

 

[RustyHornet]

I don't remember much from health class, but I don't recall learning about any metal hard drives in the human body. I may be wrong, feel free to correct me if I am...

I also don't understand your point, a bigger slower bullet penetrates less than a smaller faster bullet. Not sure why that's up for debate or why you are arguing about that.

By your data, we should all be carrying a 44 mag.

 

[VERT]

If science was the only basis for military selection of calibers, you might have a point, sir. But it's not, and you don't.

The point is that a measly hard drive (not even in the computer, but bare hard drive) stopped the .45 slug COLD. It didn't even get through all the platters in the middle, never mind the back part of the case.

Hate to break it to you but a hard drive stops 9mm same as a 45 acp. I have photographic proof in my photobucket but for the life of me I can't remember which picture is which. I am pretty sure this is the 9mm.

 

[KJQ6945]

If science was the only basis for military selection of calibers, you might have a point, sir. But it's not, and you don't.

The point is that a measly hard drive (not even in the computer, but bare hard drive) stopped the .45 slug COLD. It didn't even get through all the platters in the middle, never mind the back part of the case.

When hard drives turn into blood thirsty zombies, I'll use this information, until then, I'll keep burning computers that cross me and stick with proven man stoppers in my guns.

 

[Route 45]

If science was the only basis for military selection of calibers, you might have a point, sir. But it's not, and you don't.

The point is that a measly hard drive (not even in the computer, but bare hard drive) stopped the .45 slug COLD. It didn't even get through all the platters in the middle, never mind the back part of the case.

I have seen the light. I have always suspected that Federal, Speer, Hornady and Winchester have been lying to us with their so-called "ballistic tests," where they shoot service caliber rounds into consistent media and observe similar penetration across the board. How is it possible for a .45 HST round to penetrate 14" - 15" and expand to almost 1" in those tests, when it won't even go through a hard drive, which we all know is exactly the same as human tissue and bone? I think you should contact these liars right away and confront them with your real-world scientific observations. I'd also look into all of those FAKE stories of bad guys being dropped decisively by .45 ACP. Can't be true. The .45 won't penetrate warm butter.

I feel positively unarmed with my M&P .45 and it's anemic 230 grain HST +P rounds now. I should have known, those wimpy things only go about 950 fps or so. That's what, 647 mph? Clearly a slow, stupid round. I might relegate it to squirrel hunting, and save my 9mm Glock for serious purposes.

Like stalking computer components.

 

[Route 45]

I just had a brilliant business idea!

 

[VERT]

Thinking about this last night, I was wrong. The picture above was a .45 lead semi wadcutter. The picture below was a 9mm, you can see the copper jacket. 9mm FMJ and 45 acp ball will go through a hard drive platter. But lead or a peripheral hit with the FMJ will be stopped.

Don't pick on Hohn! The truth is handgun cartridges suck. 9mm had made a lot of advances and has become the new hotness. This has not always been the case. I will agree that so far as service cartridges is concerned 9mm is currently the way to go. If I were outfitting a department there is no doubt I would choose 9mm. But 40 and 45 are still larger and have more frontal surface area. Lot of good (or more) choices for suitable duty ammo.

 

[bstewrat3]

One good thing did come out of this. It put the Sar K2 45 on my radar and I just had to have one. Thanks to the OP I got a heads up on a smoking deal and was able to pick one up for $369 with free shipping and was able to pick up two mags at $24 each from CDNN. I plan to get out and shoot it today and if it shoots as well as the reviews say it's going to be a great day.

As far as 45acp power goes compared to everything else, I don't care and look at it like this, if it didn't work somewhere along the line it wouldn't be over 100 years old and in constant production the whole time.

 

[88E30M50]

The hard drive test is interesting, but not overly scientific. When you look at the actual test results published, the .45 comes out ahead of the 9 by a fair margin in terms of wound volume. Using published data, the wound volume of 3 rounds of a 230g Golden Saber .45 is 15 cubic inches. 185g +P gives 14.5 cubic inches. .40 S&W yields 13.5 cubic inches of wound volume. The best 9mm I could find data on was a 124g +P Golden Saber which yielded only 11.7 cubic inches of wound volume. A Hornady Critical Duty 9mm only yields 6.7 cubic inches of wound volume with the +P variety bumping that up to 7.6 cubic inches for 3 rounds.

As much as 9mm carriers like to think their round of choice is just as good as a .45, the math says otherwise. But, if you shoot 9mm better then it makes sense for you to put 6.7 cubic inches of damage into the attacker accurately than to toss 15 cubic inches of damage all over. If, on the other hand, you shoot an old, antiquated 1911 better then you might be a fool to trust those first three critical rounds to something less than what you shoot best.

 

[deo62]

I'm a dyed in wool 45 fan. That being said I would not like to be shot with any of the rounds in this discussion...

 

[phylodog]

As much as 9mm carriers like to think their round of choice is just as good as a .45, the math says otherwise. But, if you shoot 9mm better then it makes sense for you to put 6.7 cubic inches of damage into the attacker accurately than to toss 15 cubic inches of damage all over. If, on the other hand, you shoot an old, antiquated 1911 better then you might be a fool to trust those first three critical rounds to something less than what you shoot best.

Please define wound volume. If you're including the temporary wound cavity in that measurement, there is a lot of debate on the validity. From what I've seen with my own eyes and in speaking with trauma Docs here in Indy I don't believe the temporary cavity is worth much of anything at the velocities of handgun rounds. Projectiles moving at rifle velocities (220fps +) is a different story.

There is no scientific "proof" either way so I stick with what is known. Handgun (or slower moving) bullets do actual, effective damage to the tissue they come in to direct contact with. Handgun rounds don't turn vital organs into pudding like rifle rounds do. This still leaves a (slight) benefit to the .45 as it does produce a larger profile and therefore does more damage but it comes at a cost in the size and weight of the handgun, limited capacity and recoil. Recoil is not as sharp as the 9 or 40 but it is substantial, heavier guns (1911) compensate for this well but you're then carrying a heavier gun.

The current 9mm, .40 & .45 are all easily capable rounds. There is no standout between them in lethality. Shot placement is of much more importance.

 

[88E30M50]

To get wound volume, take half the penetration and calculate the volume using the nominal size of the bullet (.456 for a .45) and add it to the volume calculated with half the penetration and full expanded size. Temporary cavity is not a part of the calculation, only the physical volume the bullet passes through is taken into account. I don't think you get enough velocity out of handgun calibers to have a useful temporary cavity.

For instance, a 230g .45 Golden Saber has a nominal diameter of .456. That gives it an area of .163313 sq inches unexpanded. FBI tests credit it with 16.8 inches of penetration, at the end of which, it measured .741 inches in diameter (.43124 sq inch area). Halve the penetration and apply one half to the unexpanded area and the other half to the expanded area. The volume of the sum of the two comes to 4.99 cubic inches. 3 rounds of .45 give a potential of just under 15 cubic inches of volumetric damage.

Do the same calculation with 9mm Golden Saber +P ammo and you start with a diameter of .356 giving an area of .099538 sq inches. At a full penetration of 17.9 inches, it measured .656 inches giving it an expanded area of .33798 sq inches. Halve the penetration and apply like above and the total potential wound volume of the physical bullet is 3.92 cubic inches or 11.7 cubic inches for 3 rounds.

Divide the two and the .45 passes through 1.2794 times the material as does the 9mm.

If you use Hornady's published data on their non-plus P Critical Duty round, with a 19 inch penetration, but only expanding to .416 inches in diameter, you get a wound volume of only 2.24 cubic inches per round or an anemic 6.71 cubic inches of damage for the first three rounds.

Where the 9mm shines is in the damage potential in an entire magazine. A Glock 19 has a potential to do 62.7 cubic inches of damage with the full 15+1 rounds compared to the 1911's 44.9 cubic inches of damage in an 8+1 config. For a civilian carrier, those first three rounds are most likely the only three rounds though.

It's interesting to see that a .40 S&W carrying 180g Golden Sabers has a total volumetric potential almost identical to the 9mm when the full mag capacity is considered (62.9 vs 62.7), but delivered in bigger bites (4.49 vs 3.92).

 

[ryan3030]

To add something to the Hard Drive thing...I shot one with a .50 AE Desert Eagle a couple of weeks ago and it was stopped dead by the platters. The bullet made it about 4/5 of the way through.

.44 Magnum, on the other hand, went through like butter.