Could an LTCH holder have done anything to lessen the damage caused in Colorado?

[looney2ns]

I recently had the chance to shoot a Barretta Px4 sub compact in 40 cal. I generally do not like the recoil of the 40, and neither do my wrist and elbo. BUT, I must say this little fire cracker was amazing. It was no worse than shooting a 9mm. It was very accurate, easy to maintain followup shots. I was very pleasantly surprised in this great little package.

 

[mrp010]

I think anyone shooting back would have had little effect and would probalby be dead now.

 

[Hohn]

One other factor is that the "Joker" was wearing a CBRN mask. That and the helmet would limit his vision and hearing. Reflections within the mask, from the glare of the movie projection would be disorienting. Add to that, all the screaming and movement in the theater would have added to his disorientation. In the fog of this massacre, there may have been an opportunity to stop him.

Like several posters have stated, many, many variables to this scenario.

Not to mention that those masks offer next to nothing for bullet resistance. Granted it's a small target.

As others have a alluded, the options are really between zero impact to affect the situation vs some non-zero ability to affect the situation.

Or are they? Must you have a gun to jump the guy or affect the potential scenario in some non-zero probability manner?

Some hits from even a .380 would have stung, even through the armor. Dispositive? Highly unlikely. But non-zero for sure.


At the end of the day, any typical LTCH would-be savior would have been massively outgunned and had serious environmental disadvantages.

Sure, they might have been able to make a difference. But we're debating the difference between winning the lotto once or winning it twice.

The odds of being shot in a theater while watching a movie have (until recently) been so low as to be hard to measure.

Then calculate the remote odds under these conditions that something else would have been determinant?

I'm no gambler.

If I was LTCH, I would have returned fire with whatever I had to defend myself and my family. I would also likely be dead or wounded just the same.

 

[Mackey]

So went to see the Batman movie last night and the wife says ..."If they were smart they wouldn't let anyone in with a gun" knowing that I would be CC as always.
Oh my. A little education and I set her right. She accepted the logic (that I believe JetGirl first posted) along the lines that if all adults were packing it would have been a different story. She accepted that.
No beefed up security. Nothing out of the ordinary (New Albany, Great Escape, Charlestown Road).

 

[caverjamie]

Think about it. With a crowded theatre late at night I would guess it's a good chance there was someone CC'ing in the theatre 'no gun' sign or not.

This is what I was wondering too. It seems like there are enough of us that someone would have been carrying. Maybe...if I were to use myself as an example though, I have never been in a situation requiring me to use a weapon for self defense...how would I react? I don't know for sure. Maybe someone had a gun but was so freaked out he/she didn't think to try and use it. Might never know if someone had one or not.

 

[Double T]

If someone had met him with even a remotely close amount of force, the injuries/fatalities may be smaller.

Someone popping shots in his general direction could have distracted him enough to let a bunch more people out.

Also, how many shots did the LEO get off on the guy in (Lafayette or Evansville) that killed his wife and was shooting his AK through the squad car?

 

[AuburnGuy]

Unfortunately we will NEVER KNOW! I think it may have at least decreased the damage caused.... Or I should say, I would like to think it would have decreased the damage. Either way it is going to have a negative effect on the 2A at a bad time.

 

[mrortega]

Of more importance what if someone would have smelled trouble when the guy went out the exit door and got up and relocked it? But who of us hasn't seen something a little odd and not done anything about it? If Colorado Coward would have found the door locked he might have chickened out. Or maybe had to go in the main entrance and hurt a lot fewer people if he was challenged there. Slight thread jack but just some thoughts from some of the other posts here.

 

[mrortega]

This is what I was wondering too. It seems like there are enough of us that someone would have been carrying. Maybe...if I were to use myself as an example though, I have never been in a situation requiring me to use a weapon for self defense...how would I react? I don't know for sure. Maybe someone had a gun but was so freaked out he/she didn't think to try and use it. Might never know if someone had one or not.

I get the impression that there were a lot of kids and teens there. If it had been mostly adults there would likely have been a few carriers.

 

[mrortega]

If someone had met him with even a remotely close amount of force, the injuries/fatalities may be smaller.

Someone popping shots in his general direction could have distracted him enough to let a bunch more people out.

Also, how many shots did the LEO get off on the guy in (Lafayette or Evansville) that killed his wife and was shooting his AK through the squad car?

It was Evansville and the first LEO there rolled out of his car under fire and I think got off something like 3 shots at 30 yards with his G21. He managed to hit the guy in the neck if I'm not mistaken. It wasn't fatal but the guy was definitely hit.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I get the impression that there were a lot of kids and teens there. If it had been mostly adults there would likely have been a few carriers.

Dont know about that. It was against the law to carry guns in the theater out there. Most gun owners tend to obey the laws, even the stupid ones when it means you could lose your privilege to carry.

 

[Mark 1911]

Dont know about that. It was against the law to carry guns in the theater out there. Most gun owners tend to obey the laws, even the stupid ones when it means you could lose your privilege to carry.

I checked the Colorado code regarding places off limits for carrying. It doesn't list movie theaters, and also mentions that no-gun signs do not have force of law. I am no expert, but it doesn't appear, at least from the source posted below, that legal permit holders could not have carried at the theater.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf

 

[Bunnykid68]

I checked the Colorado code regarding places off limits for carrying. It doesn't list movie theaters, and also mentions that no-gun signs do not have force of law. I am no expert, but it doesn't appear, at least from the source posted below, that legal permit holders could not have carried at the theater.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf

Looks like you may very well be correct, I may be confused with another state or just guilty of misinformation and laziness.

 

[esrice]

Some scenario-based force-on-force would help answer some of the "what if" questions posed in this thread.

Could a gun-toter have made a difference? Absolutely.

Would he have to use a gun? Not necessarily.

Could an unarmed person with a proper mindset have made a difference? Absolutely.

Are YOU ready? Would YOU have made a difference?

 

[Bunnykid68]

Some scenario-based force-on-force would help answer some of the "what if" questions posed in this thread.

Could a gun-toter have made a difference? Absolutely.

Would he have to use a gun? Not necessarily.

Could an unarmed person with a proper mindset have made a difference? Absolutely.

Are YOU ready? Would YOU have made a difference?

Agreed.

Am I ready? I do not know in a setting like that. 300 people in a confined space it would depend on your location vs the bad guy

 

[cg21]

I have never been put into a situation like this. And have no training.



I cant believe people that were close enough to touch this guy didnt...? Grab at his mask.... anything. Would make it easier if he had a rifle I would think over a handgun to wrestle him for them. But like ti was said in here that body armor is not light push him over. Like you all said first is my family and my life. If we made it out.. happened to be close to an exit wouldnt matter if I had a gun or not. But if I am close enough to touch this guy AND I have a gun. I doubt the helmet will help if it is right up to his head and if it does... 10 more shots to the body would have to do it.

 

[Valvestate]

There is a lot of debate here, what if's.
I know two things for certain:

1. Do nothing and 12 people die.
2. Its better to die fighting than to die on your knees like a sheep at slaughter.

In any defense situation, if I'm going to die, it's going to be with a warm gun in my hand.

 

[CathyInBlue]

There's a whole world of separation between "could have made a difference" and "would have made a difference."

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Yeah sure, but who is going to volunteer to be the distraction aka bullet catcher in a situation like that?

Are you going to risk attracting the shooters attention when you pop up with your knife knowing everyone hiding in the same row of seats aka your loved ones would then be in the shooters cone of fire?

Plus some people are just not considering how fast it all happened. With the smoke and disorientation from all the noise (that had to be shockingly loud in the confines of the theater) by the time most people could process exactly what was happening and what they could effectively do to counter the shooter he was already back in the parking lot.

People have brought up how people fought back on flight 93 and disparage the movie crowd as sheep and cowards.
However there are three key differences between the situations.

1. Occurring on an airplane they knew waiting it out for outside rescue was not an option.

2. They had time to process the situation and coordinate with other passengers to plan their counter attack.

3. The passengers knew they and maybe thousands of others were going to definitely die if they did nothing. Keeping their head down and having a chance of survival was not an option.

It didn't happen in this particular situation, but it has happened before. IIRC, the gunman in the Gabby Gifford shooting was tackled by folks during a mag change.

And there is usually someone who is willing to try to take an assailant down in a situation like this.

Had it been me, I'd certainly rather have had a couple others to add to my weight of fire, but I believe I'd have tried to move away from people and engage him. Since it was fairly obvious he was in body armor, I'd have tried to get a head shot (it would also be safer for bystanders), but I would have expected return fire if I missed him or came to his attention. Sometimes being able to do something means you have to do it and not think about the personal cost.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

There was nothing that could have been done with all that he was wearing and the conditions of the theater .

Now THAT is patently untrue. We've already explained how it could have been done if anyone would have had as much as a pocket knife and the sense to use it.