Review of Dynamic Vehicle Tactics w/ Pat McNamara

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  • cedartop

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    What: Dynamic Vehicle Tactics.

    When: 5-6OCT2013

    Where: Hollows Training Center Mt. Carroll, IL

    Who: Pat McNamara. For those not familiar with him, here is a short Bio from the Alias website


    Pat McNamara (Mac) has 22 years of Special Operations experience, 13 of which were in 1st SFOD-D. He has extensive experience in hostile fire/combat zones in the Middle East, and Eastern Europe. He trains individuals at basic and advanced levels of marksmanship and combat tactics.

    When he worked in the premier special missions unit, he became an impeccable marksman, shooting with accurate, lethal results and tactical effectiveness. McNamara has trained tactical applications of shooting to people of all levels of marksmanship, from varsity level soldiers, and police officers who work the streets to civilians with little to no time behind the trigger.

    His military experience quickly taught him that there is more to tactical marksmanship than merely squeezing the trigger. Utilizing his years of experience, McNamara developed a training methodology that is safe, effective and combat relevant and encourages a continuous thought process. This methodology teaches how to maintain safety at all times and choose targets that force accountability, as well as provides courses covering several categories, including individual, collective, on line and standards.

    While serving as his Unit's Marksmanship NCO, he developed his own marksmanship club with NRA, CMP, and USPSA affiliations. Mac ran monthly IPSC matches and ran semi annual military marksmanship championships to encourage marksmanship fundamentals and competitiveness throughout the Army.

    He retired from the Army's premier hostage rescue unit as a Sergeant Major and is the author of T.A.P.S. (Tactical Application of Practical Shooting).



    Gear Used; Glock 19 with RMR. Glock 17 with Pro-sights (D.R. Middlebrooks) S&W M&P15 with Eotech XPS2.0. Back-up Sig5556 with Vortex PST 1-4X. 2nd back up, TSD VEPR .308 w/ iron sights.
    Dale Fricke holsters. Viking Tactics and Vickers slings. TSD15 mags.

    TD-1 Day one was a shortened version of Mac's 2-day TAPS class. We started of course with safety. The only real difference here was with rule 1. Mac likes to change rule 1 to "Always know the status of your weapon". I can definitely agree with that. "All guns are always loaded" is something we tell kids to scare them. Adults realize this is not true. A safety issue that I am not use to and would come back to haunt me later is Mac's constant use of the safety on the AR. If your sights are not on the target then the weapon is on safe. He includes changing mags in this. When you go dry, you engage the safety, change mags, get back on target and then disengage the safety. "Safety is always an enabler, never a disabler."

    After this it was time to send some rounds down range. We started with zeroing at 50 yards. I was a little surprised with how much time we took on this, but down the road when I saw Mac's accuracy requirements, I saw why it was a good idea. After getting dialed in at 50, we moved back to 100 to gather some info. Stuff like, where are you hitting at 100, do you need any more windage adjustment, do you have any parralax issues, and what is the affect when you cat the rifle 90 degrees as if laying it across the hood of a car. Mac calls this "discovery learning". When this was all taken care of we worked some drills that would use what we just did. Theses included the 4 position drill at 50 yards, and "Light the fuse". Yes that one was a lungful.

    Lunch. If you go to this facility, bring your own lunch. There is nothing remotely close except the "slurp and burp", and I was afraid to try that one out.

    After lunch it was pistol time. Mostly Glocks here with a couple of 1911's, and M&P's. Mac switched from a 1911 to a Glock when he ran out of .45 ammo. We did a few simple drills to see where everyone was at, and get some input from Mac, and then it was on to some of his signature drills along with a modified El Prez. To perform this version of the El Prez we were at 7 yards and were required to make a zone only hits. Each person did three runs with the goal being to get faster each time while maintaining the accuracy of A zone only hits. You would think that knowing this going in, everyone would start slow, make sure to get their hits and then gradually speed up. No, not the case. Once that timer comes out and you know the others are watching you, most people get right into going as fast as they can. I was able to shoot 3 successively faster runs clean for 2 of the 3 times we did this. This was probably only because I knew no one there and didn't really have anything to prove. As soon as I saw I was competitive with some of the faster times, I pushed it and dropped a shot. This is performance based training, not outcome based training.

    TD-2

    Day 2 started at a different range. One with cars on it. Yay! We started by moving the cars around to set them up in a good format to accomplish the days task. This was done mostly by hand because they weren't exactly in running condition. We also had to drain several inches of water out of one via holes from a .45.
    :cool:
    IMG_20131006_081611_498.jpg IMG_20131006_081549_804.jpg

    Once everything was set up we went over safety again. It was time for more discovery learning as we tried out various positions and different ways to use the vehicle for cover. We were also reminded that a vehicle is not always cover but maybe only concealment. We did this by shooting various rounds through the cars and seeing how they worked. 9mm usually zipped through, . 40's and .45's, not so much. Weird. Some guys also tried out their duty loads. I, of course, had to bring out the .308 AK and give it a shot.

    After this came a lot of shooting. We shot around through and out of the vehicles with both our rifles and pistols. Pistols at steel and carbines at paper. Only A-zone hits were good. We worked some team stuff and did a number of Mac's drills. It was on one of these that the safety thing dinged me. I was having a good run on one of the drills, but upon completion Mac informed me it was a no go because I did not engage my safety during a mag change. Oh well.

    Some where in here was lunch and a briefing on VI. (Vehicle interdictions) It was here part of Mac's wide range of knowledge and experience as a Delta Operator started leaking in.(or out, as it were.) After lunch we did some more drills that required us to use not only our marksmanship from the day before but also all of the things we had worked on in the morning.


    Thoughts, take aways, and lessons learned.

    I'll start with the instructor. Does anyone remember Randy "the Macho Man" Savage. Mac talks like him sometime's. Don't let that mislead you though, he is a great communicator and a deep thinker. He explains what you need to know but doesn't get lost in the minutia. All in all I was pleasantly surprised. I will take another one of his classes.

    Something I have griped about before is big class sizes. This was a 20 person class with one instructor. Mac managed the class well, and everyone got some face time, but I still feel 20 people is too many for one instructor. What about those people. There were less than a handful of "regular guys" in the class. Most were LEO's, SWAT team guys at that. This was a very high level class. Good shooters and good gun handlers. This brings me to another point. There was no prereqs listed for this class, but it was definitely not a beginners class. Alias the promoters of the class, should definitely look into recommendations of which classes suit who.

    The facilities were so-so. This used to be Blackwater North. I know it has changed hands a few times, and I understand that it is actually in better shape now than a couple of years ago. Hopefully this improvement will continue. The facilities were adequate and safe but not very well maintained.

    Teamwork. This was a good class for a partner, especially the second day. Most of the guys there had come with training partners or fellow SWAT team members. I had not even given this a thought. Fortunately there was another lone operator in the class, and I knew him from a prior SI class. That ended up working pretty well. I tried to get Shooter521 to go, but he didn't like the idea of going into IL I guess. (or maybe it was just with me:()

    :yesway:

    IMG_20131006_121613_157.jpg
     

    Randy Harris

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    Thanks for the review. I'll call you later for more in depth review...

    Now...to pull the pin.....

    Just a little musing....on the safety usage....did anyone think that engaging the safety during a mag change might be a bit.... ...excessive?

    Did he cover transitioning from rifle to pistol? If so did he recommend engaging the safety before transitioning? (and you probably know where I'm going with this.....)

    And did he mention whether this was just an AR-centric methodology or would he also recommend engaging the safety on other guns that do not have a safety located where an AR safety is? (Like an AK?) Just curious as to the reasoning and whether he had a specific reason for doing it that way or was it "because that is how we did it".
     

    cedartop

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    Randy, I was wondering who would first broach that subject. For just a few minutes in class I was "that guy" as I asked Mac about the safety issue. His response was firm but not jerky. He believes that ANYTIME your sights come of the target, the safety goes on. To be fair he did go after one of my pet peeves and the bad habit of going "hard to the gaurd." He is a big beliver in checking your work through your sights and then looking for more work before you break position.

    Overall I think you would like him as he is a big believer in accuracy standards, and supporter of competition as a means to being a better shooter. There were of course some points of disagreement though, as you see.
     

    Randy Harris

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    Did he advocate using the safety during a reactive transition?...........

    And did he engage the safety while reloading his 1911?


    Just so everyone knows...I'm not trying to be a jackass here I am trying to determine something very specific. This is "search for understanding by asking very specific questions" and not any kind of attack on either Mike or Pat McNamara. Mike knows that, but since there is no tone or voice inflection on the web I just want to make sure those reading along know that too..... I'm just as interested in the "WHY" someone does something as I am in the "What" they do.....
     
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    cedartop

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    Did he advocate using the safety during a reactive transition?...........

    And did he engage the safety while reloading his 1911?


    ..

    He didn't speak to either of these specifically. As we both know, during many malfunctions with an AR type weapon you are unable to put the safety on, so........

    Now don't be upset because I have a new Hero to idolize, your time may come back around.:D
     

    cedartop

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    537949_399264930199700_1730102211_n.jpg


    This one is for you Randy. If you look, you can see the "Sling Ding" I was talking about near the front attachment point.
     

    shooter521

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    That seems like a pretty weak/unstable platform from which to conduct a carbine reload. Almost every instructor I've ever trained with has advocated aligning the stock with the forearm or trapping it under the arm in order to maximize leverage and reduce movement of the gun. With longer/heavier rifles, I don't even see the position illustrated being physically possible.
     

    Steve MI

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    Thanks for the review. I'll call you later for more in depth review...

    Now...to pull the pin.....

    Just a little musing....on the safety usage....did anyone think that engaging the safety during a mag change might be a bit.... ...excessive?

    Did he cover transitioning from rifle to pistol? If so did he recommend engaging the safety before transitioning? (and you probably know where I'm going with this.....)

    And did he mention whether this was just an AR-centric methodology or would he also recommend engaging the safety on other guns that do not have a safety located where an AR safety is? (Like an AK?) Just curious as to the reasoning and whether he had a specific reason for doing it that way or was it "because that is how we did it".


    no its not in my book if iam not shooting safety is on, if iam loading safety is on, if its malfunction the safety or lack there of gives you feedback as the condtion of the gun and what is required to fix it as well

    yes when transitioning the the safety in my book goes on or it attempts to go on... again feedback
    1911 during slidelock no of course it cant go on, during tac reloads yes it goes on its not a shooting solution

    my things not Pat's
     

    Jackson

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    That seems like a pretty weak/unstable platform from which to conduct a carbine reload. Almost every instructor I've ever trained with has advocated aligning the stock with the forearm or trapping it under the arm in order to maximize leverage and reduce movement of the gun. With longer/heavier rifles, I don't even see the position illustrated being physically possible.

    Yeah, but you don't have forearms like that dude.
     

    Randy Harris

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    no its not in my book if iam not shooting safety is on, if iam loading safety is on, if its malfunction the safety or lack there of gives you feedback as the condtion of the gun and what is required to fix it as well

    yes when transitioning the the safety in my book goes on or it attempts to go on... again feedback
    1911 during slidelock no of course it cant go on, during tac reloads yes it goes on its not a shooting solution

    my things not Pat's

    OK.

    Most people that teach the "safety on" during transitions are teaching it that way because they have a firing line of people with fully functional guns with loaded mags and a round in the chamber PROACTIVELY transitioning to pistols instead of taking the time and setting up actual malfunctions with dummy rounds interspersed in the mag (or by using almost empty guns that will be shot empty) and using that stoppage as the stimulus to REACTIVELY transition. The way it happens for real....

    Instead they generally use an agreed upon "fire 3 then place on safe and transition". They are essentially choosing to stop shooting, safe the gun and draw a pistol instead of actually training to REact to a gun suffering a stoppage. Putting the safety on when transitioning LOADED and functional guns is OK from a square range safety standpoint... I suppose..... but not terribly realistic since the transition is a REactive thing in real life predicated on the stimulus of the gun stopping working .

    Transitions are for when the rifle unexpectedly goes belly up and you still need to shoot RIGHT NOW. If we train transitions with loaded rifles (that we have to flip the safety on) then I'd argue that is building a training scar....the whole idea of the transition to pistol is that the rifle no longer works.....so we are transitioning to a gun that works....The object is not "safeing" a still functional gun in order to just switch to a smaller gun just for the sake of doing it.

    If it is a malfunction then the gun will not fire...that is after all the definition of a malfunction....that is WHY we are transitioning...because it WILL NOT fire...so the added application of the safety is really redundant.

    If it is an AR and the hammer dropped and the round did not fire (or ANY malfunction where the hammer is not still cocked) then the safety will not go on anyway ...so the safety is irrelevant...and the rifle is still non functional. Simply grab your pistol and get back to work.

    As to diagnosing the malfunction by whether the safety can be applied or not, that is actually an interesting idea....but if you practice non diagnostic malf clearance (Tap/rack and if that does not work then immediately unload/reload) then you skip that diagnosis time altogether anyway.

    I have never understood why some people think it is perfectly safe to stand around with a glock in hand with no manual safety engaged, yet their AR has to have the safety engaged immediately unless it is actively going "bang". Guns don't just go off unless you pull the trigger.....Yet I have handled Ars (mostly LE guns) that the safety had been used so much it was "wobbly". I have even seen guys who advocate engaging the safety on their 1911s while they do proactive (slide forward) reloads....yet no one thinks twice about proactively reloading glocks by simply taking finger out of trigger guard and inserting the mag....which is perfectly safe....whether it is a glock, 1911, subgun, shotgun or a rifle.

    If it is a matter of teaching people new to firearm safety then I respect that...But after the BASIC level I think most serious students can run the gun without constantly engaging the safety.I just think all that constant on/off with the safety might be a bit excessive and unnecessary.

    If you set it down or relinquish control of a still functional gun then YES the safety NEEDS to be on. BUt if you still control the rifle then it can be safely handled with the safety in the off position. Sometimes I think some of those guys are teaching it that way (constantly flicking the safety on and off) to look like they doing something .....but just because it HAS a lever does not mean you have to constantly be pushing it.... If you have control of the rifle then it is perfectly safe to reload (especially if EMPTY) without engaging the safety. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
     
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    Steve MI

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    I have been on the line during class when one of your teams AIs had a student do similar and ND a gun between him and the AI..durning slinging .i have trained with members of teams that are among the best in the world they run safetys for reason or attempt too... i have also been around to see horrible death when a non saftey user killed a team mate in a transition there are things that are done for a reason I trust Pat more than many others period in there thinking

    I as a good shooter and trainer and user of many guns know what is in my hands and when and how to use it range based drills like some taught in a lot of places dont translate well to real world such as indoors and indoors team work and building clearning/cqb which i have spent the pass several months doing teaching along with some elite dudes.. i do teach non diagnostic malfunctions the saftey allows me to skip one step in that process of IA/RA

    I have seen a carbine as well go off when slung during a transition when the gun was slug and slammed the bolt went home seated the round and a hunk of kit pressed the trigger while the guy was moving... it happens in real life not always on an artifical 180 range life

    I see your points i argue the fact it take me no time to handle the safety as i need too and to deal with probles as they arise....
    the safety can only enable you never disable you "Pat"
    i tend to agree with that

    except i always laugh at transition crowd so in 3am in your man suit where do place your second gun... to many live in tactical fantasy bandcamp land
    of zombies and end of the world and rambo and not very real things....sad to say

    you dont always have a second gun or the option
     

    cedartop

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    I have been on the line during class when one of your teams AIs had a student do similar and ND a gun between him and the AI..durning slinging .i have trained with members of teams that are among the best in the world they run safetys for reason or attempt too... i have also been around to see horrible death when a non saftey user killed a team mate in a transition there are things that are done for a reason I trust Pat more than many others period in there thinking
    .n

    Steve I am glad you mentioned this. I was not there for the incident you mentioned, but heard about it and numerous others. The most recent with TR where IIRC someone shot themselves in the foot in the process. My take away from this is different than yours. This is a clue for me that you don't do a reactive transition to your secondary with a loaded/functional weapon. In the non square range the reason for this transition under reactive circumstances would be an empty or malfunctioning weapon. That being the case why practice transitions with loaded/functioning weapons? (I know there are other reasons, but they fall under proactive or administrative) This doesn't solve the question of safety or not during reloading, but is germane to the point you bring up. Agree, or no?

    btw, "man suit". Thats funny.
     

    bwframe

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    Great discussion here guys. Thanks for the info!
    Man, wouldn't a YouTube instructional vid with the pros and cons be cool? :whistle: Just sayin'. :)
     

    Steve MI

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    when i teach transistions they are taught inside x distance and with dead guns or guns that are about to go dead with dummies or empties loading into mags in some classes, in others they get done with dead gun or 1-3 rounds etc pending its all artificial we can only make guns stop working so much in class

    there are time to do them with loaded functioning weapons i find is more reliavant to tactics than techniques...i go safety on during loading for a few reasons

    1 it might not be a shooting solution any longer
    2 if it is the situation may have changed and things have moved and should be moving i want that most possible bit of security in case of slip trip fall teammates movement etc...
    3 the action is over and i have no work to do .......if iam not shooting the safety is on simple... i have had several depts during UTM trainings as OPFOR and INST shoot me and others when suprised ? more so in the dark I love that... the safety on the gun and the one between there ears often arent linked
    they should be i have done timed drills safety on and off its not enough in reaction to risk it for for a milisecond
     

    Trigger Time

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    when i teach transistions they are taught inside x distance and with dead guns or guns that are about to go dead with dummies or empties loading into mags in some classes, in others they get done with dead gun or 1-3 rounds etc pending its all artificial we can only make guns stop working so much in class

    there are time to do them with loaded functioning weapons i find is more reliavant to tactics than techniques...i go safety on during loading for a few reasons

    1 it might not be a shooting solution any longer
    2 if it is the situation may have changed and things have moved and should be moving i want that most possible bit of security in case of slip trip fall teammates movement etc...
    3 the action is over and i have no work to do .......if iam not shooting the safety is on simple... i have had several depts during UTM trainings as OPFOR and INST shoot me and others when suprised ? more so in the dark I love that... the safety on the gun and the one between there ears often arent linked
    they should be i have done timed drills safety on and off its not enough in reaction to risk it for for a milisecond
    I agree with your method stated 100%
     
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