Forum concerns

[christman]

I thought I would start a thread here where i hope that it would be appropriately looked upon.

As I'm sure most of you know, there has been a growing group of people who are in discontent with INGO moderation standards and practices.

I understand that as an internet forum grows, it is hard to please everyone all of the time. It is also hard to be 100% consistent all of the time when different people have different interpretations of what is considered appropriate in regards to the rules. Nonetheless, there IS a growing percentage of INGO whom feels that this inconsistency is teetering towards the unacceptable side of proper moderation.

What if anything, do you all feel can be done to remedy these concerns? I mentioned in another thread that a "State of INGO" newsletter or thread might be a nice gesture to address recent events and also future ones. Is this something that you feel could be possible in the near future? (Of course it would have to have a rules post on the very first section to curb those who only wish to flame from participating.)

Some, if not many of you may think there is no problem and the people complaining are only doing so because of allegiances to others. I do not believe this to be the case. Being a part of other forums as well as this one, I see many that are upset here, who only call INGO home and no where else relative. Yes, there are some that have been here quite a long time who have seen friends, leave/banned, but that doesn't represent the growing complaints by a long shot. (And yes, there are a few of you that have contacted me via PM and email that share this concern as well.)

I feel that while there is no easy answer since none of us are robots, it would be wise to attempt to bring INGO back together by any means necessary. I want to see a group of gun enthusiasts talk about guns...Not a bunch of internet kung-fu hero's throwing insults and back-handed comments that offer no bearing to what this board is built upon.

I have enjoyed my time being here. I appreciate the work that you and others have put into building this site into the knowledge base that it is today. While considering what I have said, please keep in mind that the average lifespan of an internet forum is 2.4 years. INGO has already surpassed that, let's keep changing the statistics through continued honest and fair practice.

Thank you for your time and I, along with many others, look forward to your suggestions/solutions.


Christman-

 

[4sarge]

Great Post

 

[JetGirl]

I applaud your post, Christman...but unfortunately it will likely be regarded with a blind eye and a deaf ear, like any other question posed in the interest of equal moderation.
Note that I didn't say "More" moderation, as Fenway attributed to me in the Bus thread. I never stated that. I said "unbiased". There's a huge difference.
Mods and admin here are quite aware that two people can perform the same action garnering one member a punishment and the other a pass. Specific examples were pointed out, suggestions were given. What more can be said? Nothing.
Suggestions are viewed as "complaining" and the favoritism isn't viewed at all... After all, you can't view something if you're looking the other way.

 

[sparky241]

there are quite a few who are aware of what has been going on.I hope this is taken as advice and not complaining. first why will mods never answer pm's? vupd is the only one who will,i take this as disrespectful, if you want me to have respect please show it.

2nd i want the rules lightened, all of this fighting actually started about the time god was taken out of here. this was impart to one member who is now banned and has been gone for a long time.please understand god is a big part of my life that somehow has to stay at the door when i come here.

3rd equal moderation. i know of several people who have been banned for very little but others who get away with posting far more.this isnt fair to anyone and underminds the integrety of the board.

i like ingo, i used to love this place back when the members moderated. i said it before and ill say it again for the first year i was here i didnt even know who the mods were. i took one of the "thank a mod" threads before i knew who you guys were, you were fun to be around and i respected all of you.But when i see a lousy thread going and a dirtbag get banned for inflammatory remarks. thread closed then reopened for everyone to pile in and start slandering that person, i loose that because it shows you are just after entertainment.

I still have friends and family here on ingo. alot of these members i really respect and value. but i wont be around much if this continues.please take this into consideration and i hope you dont view it as complaining but stating my opinion from my point of view

 

[VUPDblue]

Christman, I totally agree with every single thing in your post.

JetGirl, for at least this thread, give us MODs the benefit of the doubt and a chance to open some real dialogue. I would love to see things happen here that benefit everyone and make this a more enjoyable place, so don't assume we turn a blind eye and deaf ear to every complaint/criticism.


I would love to be 100% fair and aboveboard with moderation. In fact, that is my goal. I realize that some perceive bias and "cliques" in regard to the mods but I assure you that isn't the case. It is extremely difficult to please everyone on a forum of this size, but we try our best. We struggle daily with what to do about certain issues/topics here and sometimes we just don't make the right calls, and sometimes no making a call at all is wrong. That comes across to some members as a bias even though it is not.
The biggest problem on INGO (in my own opinion) is the rampant disrespect. Some folks on here simply have no respect for other posters or the staff. I realize that there is such thing as sarcasm but that can be a thin veil to hide behind. Sometimes it is better to simply ignore a post or thread than it is to start a fight. Almost every problem post/thread I find on here is rooted in disrespect. The problem that the staff encounters is that if/when we try to enforce the rules according to their spirit, one side inevitably perceives that action as biased and vindictive. It's a tough line to walk.
I'm all for the open expression of opinions, but when you interject disrespect into said opinions, then problems are created. Take all the cops threads of late. The folks who strongly dislike the police (and .gov for that matter) take every opportunity they can find to interject their hatred into every thread they can find. While it's OK to have an opinion, we start having problems when every opportunity is taken to voice said opinion without regard to the respect of others. Specifically (cop thread related again) when someone posts a +1 to something LEO related and then someone else comes in and goes on and on about how the LEO violated his rights, are just revenuers yadda yadda yadda and then a positive thread turns into a fight. This would be an optimal time to exercise respect and keep your fingers off the keyboard, but some would rather further their opinions/agendas than be respectful of the tone of someone else's thread.

I am totally open to suggestions on how to improve INGO and make this site an enjoyable place to be. I would also like to keep this a productive thread so please post in here only if you have an open mind, respect for others and genuine suggestions.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Will this thread survive?

 

[sparky241]

Will this thread survive?

i have a feeling this thread will stay open atleast for a few days. vupd please explain something to me. why was thread marked "k not the only letter" closed? it was a thread where people could have been funny and had a good laugh. it just seems weird that it would be closed while the cop wars would stay open.

"I have ever deemed it more honorable and more profitable, too, to set a good example than to follow a bad one."

 

[VUPDblue]

there are quite a few who are aware of what has been going on.I hope this is taken as advice and not complaining. first why will mods never answer pm's? vupd is the only one who will,i take this as disrespectful, if you want me to have respect please show it.

I apologize for not answering PMs, even though I answered yours, there are some that go un-answered and that's my fault. I get a lot of PMs in a day/week/month and sometimes they just don't get responded to as they should. Sometimes I read them on my SmartPhone and then forget to respond to them when I get in front of my computer. Excuses are like.....anyway, I apologize.

2nd i want the rules lightened, all of this fighting actually started about the time god was taken out of here. this was impart to one member who is now banned and has been gone for a long time.please understand god is a big part of my life that somehow has to stay at the door when i come here.

I tend to disagree but I see where you are coming from. We prohibited religion as a topic, not God in general. We did this because some of the reflections it was creating of INGO were down right shameful. This is a forum for a common group of gun owners and there are untold numbers religions represented by that common group of gun owners. Religious groups tend to be devoutly loyal and sometimes have no tolerance of other religions. When we have threads devoted to disrespecting any religion, we then have an atmosphere that turns members of the common gun-owning group away from here due to the atmosphere that's created regarding their chosen religion. One religion in particular has it pretty rough in the world and was getting bad-mouthed and disrespected at every turn here on INGO. It was either appear to have a bias toward that religion by telling folks to stop bashing it, or remove religion as a topic all together. We obviously chose the latter. Was it the right call? I think so, but I'm open to suggestions as to how to allow it back. It all comes back to respect an civility.
3rd equal moderation. i know of several people who have been banned for very little but others who get away with posting far more.this isnt fair to anyone and underminds the integrety of the board.

Keep in mind that you only hear one side of the story in regard to bans because we (MODs) do not discuss it openly. Period.

i like ingo, i used to love this place back when the members moderated. i said it before and ill say it again for the first year i was here i didnt even know who the mods were. i took one of the "thank a mod" threads before i knew who you guys were, you were fun to be around and i respected all of you.But when i see a lousy thread going and a dirtbag get banned for inflammatory remarks. thread closed then reopened for everyone to pile in and start slandering that person, i loose that because it shows you are just after entertainment.

I personally have never closed a thread and then re-opened it other than at the request of the OP. I also have never seen any other MOD do this. as MODs, we HATE piling-on and go to great lengths to stop it. If you can link me to the thread you are referencing, I'll address it specifically. Again, it goes back to respect. Members who 'pile-on' are not exercising it.

I still have friends and family here on ingo. alot of these members i really respect and value. but i wont be around much if this continues.please take this into consideration and i hope you dont view it as complaining but stating my opinion from my point of view

Thanks for your input and suggestions. I will be off-again, on-again throughout the day and weekend, but I intend to stay active in this thread.

 

[VUPDblue]

i have a feeling this thread will stay open atleast for a few days. vupd please explain something to me. why was thread marked "k not the only letter" closed? it was a thread where people could have been funny and had a good laugh. it just seems weird that it would be closed while the cop wars would stay open.

"I have ever deemed it more honorable and more profitable, too, to set a good example than to follow a bad one."

I didn't have anything to do with that thread so I can't really comment. What I can say is that while I can see where you'd think that that thread was "funny and a good laugh" it was also at the expense of another member through the exercise of disrespect. Was the guy clearly trying to get into the classifieds? Sure, but I will point out that we have more than a couple very upstanding members who were in the same position when they first came here. They tried to get their 50 by posting junk, and were dealt with, but turned things around and are now well-regarded members. Starting threads to make fun of anyone, regardless of their post history is in bad taste and is disrespectful.

 

[christman]

"I personally have never closed a thread and then re-opened it other than at the request of the OP. I also have never seen any other MOD do this. as MODs, we HATE piling-on and go to great lengths to stop it. If you can link me to the thread you are referencing, I'll address it specifically. Again, it goes back to respect. Members who 'pile-on' are not exercising it"

I could be wrong, but I believe he might be referring to the one a few weeks ago where a member was posting pictures of his wife and guns. Then deleted them saying he was leaving INGO or something. The thread was then closed, then a mod, (I can't remember which one) said they were opening it back up for some reason that I also can't remember.

Honestly, I tried searching for it to link, but just got tired of looking and not finding. lol.

I could be wrong, but Im assuming that is at least the most recent thread that it happened in.

 

[Andre46996]

"I personally have never closed a thread and then re-opened it other than at the request of the OP. I also have never seen any other MOD do this. as MODs, we HATE piling-on and go to great lengths to stop it. If you can link me to the thread you are referencing, I'll address it specifically. Again, it goes back to respect. Members who 'pile-on' are not exercising it"

I could be wrong, but I believe he might be referring to the one a few weeks ago where a member was posting pictures of his wife and guns. Then deleted them saying he was leaving INGO or something. The thread was then closed, then a mod, (I can't remember which one) said they were opening it back up for some reason that I also can't remember.

Honestly, I tried searching for it to link, but just got tired of looking and not finding. lol.

I could be wrong, but Im assuming that is at least the most recent thread that it happened in.

You would be referencing this thread...
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...let_me_take_pictures_of_her_with_my_guns.html

It seemed rather odd that it was closed then reopened and when the OP requested it be closed it was left open almost as if to punish the OP. Allowing members to show disrespect towards the OP and his wife.

 

[christman]

Yes, that was the one I was thinking of that was most recent, but I could be wrong.

 

[Tactical Dave]

Personally I find it sad how some threads that are started with great intentions or on something good that happend turn into train wrecks.

Out of all the forums I have been a member of (a lot) this one in my opion has the most fair mods to be honest and ones that listen to legit complaints or questions... I can think of two on here that have heard me out in the past and took the time to make a detailed reply.... one issue was on a topic that the mod and I did not see eye to eye on and after voicing my opinion he said I have him a lot to think about.

I was on one site and I got a mod suspended for like 6 months for mod abuse. At the bottom of posts it would not say who edited it for very long or could be changed or something...... she was upset that she was not wining and argument and decided to change the wording in one of my posts to make me look like an idiot... I knew I did not write it and other came forward and said they saw it also and they droped the hammer on her.... what is sad is that she is/was rather well known for a while in the drag race world and had a track record......... she never said sorry, fast forward a few years ago... I am wanting to buy a part off someone and realize it is her... I tell her if she would have at least said sorry I would have bought it off her...... she pretty much told me what happend was no big deal and I am pretty sure she is still a mod on the site.

I was a mod on another site were the owner was buddies with a site sponsor and when said sponsor screwed me out of the $50 I was just told to chuck it up as a loss.

Another site was known for having mods that pretty much openly played favorites and would lock threads just because you were wining a civilized argument with one of their friends..... you would then get a PM saying that so and so and so and so are good buddies.

Another site had mods that might as well have never loged on..........

For those that complain about the mods here they do a better job then most sites out there.

 

[Que]

"I personally have never closed a thread and then re-opened it other than at the request of the OP. I also have never seen any other MOD do this. as MODs, we HATE piling-on and go to great lengths to stop it. If you can link me to the thread you are referencing, I'll address it specifically. Again, it goes back to respect. Members who 'pile-on' are not exercising it"

I could be wrong, but I believe he might be referring to the one a few weeks ago where a member was posting pictures of his wife and guns. Then deleted them saying he was leaving INGO or something. The thread was then closed, then a mod, (I can't remember which one) said they were opening it back up for some reason that I also can't remember.

Honestly, I tried searching for it to link, but just got tired of looking and not finding. lol.

I could be wrong, but Im assuming that is at least the most recent thread that it happened in.

I closed that thread at post #136, after in my opinion, the thread was starting to cross the line of disrespecting a man's wife. I reopened that thread because the member (OP) contacted me, voicing his desire to have it reopened. The thread was reopened at #137 and went on from there without further involvement on my part.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general_firearms_discussion/128105-my_wife_let_me_take_pictures_of_her_with_my_guns-4.html

 

[JetGirl]

why was thread marked "k not the only letter" closed?

it was also at the expense of another member through the exercise of disrespect.

threads to make fun of anyone, regardless of their post history is in bad taste and is disrespectful.

That thread was my doing. It was not intended to be an exercise in disrespect and was closed before I was allowed to comment to that end.
If the member took it as a personal affront, then my apology is sincerely extended.
The difference being, I fully anticipated seeing the intended join the thread and engage in conversation that would probably have accumulated the post count he was going for. I've stated as much elsewhere...but none of the mods here said word one to me about it either way. If you truly felt that it was meant in a derogatory fashion, say so at the time. That goes for actions that should be put in motion for violating the TOS if that's what you think happened. I said "unbiased" moderation...I didn't say "excluding me".

 

[VUPDblue]

"I personally have never closed a thread and then re-opened it other than at the request of the OP. I also have never seen any other MOD do this. as MODs, we HATE piling-on and go to great lengths to stop it. If you can link me to the thread you are referencing, I'll address it specifically. Again, it goes back to respect. Members who 'pile-on' are not exercising it"

I could be wrong, but I believe he might be referring to the one a few weeks ago where a member was posting pictures of his wife and guns. Then deleted them saying he was leaving INGO or something. The thread was then closed, then a mod, (I can't remember which one) said they were opening it back up for some reason that I also can't remember.

Honestly, I tried searching for it to link, but just got tired of looking and not finding. lol.

I could be wrong, but Im assuming that is at least the most recent thread that it happened in.

That thread got re-opened at the request of the OP. It turned into a bash-fest pile-on. Again, displaying a little respect would have gone a long way into not having that particular thread degenerate into what it did.

 

[VUPDblue]

That thread was my doing. It was not intended to be an exercise in disrespect and was closed before I was allowed to comment to that end.
If the member took it as a personal affront, then my apology is sincerely extended.
The difference being, I fully anticipated seeing the intended join the thread and engage in conversation that would probably have accumulated the post count he was going for. I've stated as much elsewhere...but none of the mods here said word one to me about it either way. If you truly felt that it was meant in a derogatory fashion, say so at the time. That goes for actions that should be put in motion for violating the TOS if that's what you think happened. I said "unbiased" moderation...I didn't say "excluding me".

I'm not saying that it was all your fault. What I'm saying is that while you may not have intended any disrespect, that is how it came across. Not only from you by starting it, but by some of the folks who posted in it. Regardless of your intentions, that thread was disrespectful to the member it was started about.

My question is this: What would you suggest as the correct action on our part? We saw a thread that was disrespectful and directed at a particular member so we removed it. What do you think we should have done? I don't believe you got an infraction for it, we simply removed it.


ETA: JetGirl, are you asking that we PM the OP if a thread is deleted and explain to them why it was deleted?

 

[esrice]

why was thread marked "k not the only letter" closed?

I closed it.

The thread was started with the sole purpose of "poking fun" at another member. We discourage blatant disrespect of fellow members, especially when they are new to the site and may not yet understand the culture. While we can't possibly remove EVERY instance of that happening, this one was obvious.

Rather than simply trash the thread, which I could have done, I removed the posts while keeping the OP intact. I then posted my reason for closing the thread.

 

[JetGirl]

My question is this: What would you suggest as the correct action on our part? We saw a thread that was disrespectful and directed at a particular member so we removed it. What do you think we should have done? I don't believe you got an infraction for it, we simply removed it.

I did not get an infraction for it. In fact, I didn't know it was perceived in the light it was until *after* it was locked up.
As far as what should have been done; *IF* the mod team is TRULY going to strive to be UNbiased, then assign infractions where they are due. Including that thread, retro-actively. But IF that's the case, don't leave others untouched for far worse deeds.
That is the whole point.

 

[sparky241]

"I personally have never closed a thread and then re-opened it other than at the request of the OP. I also have never seen any other MOD do this. as MODs, we HATE piling-on and go to great lengths to stop it. If you can link me to the thread you are referencing, I'll address it specifically. Again, it goes back to respect. Members who 'pile-on' are not exercising it"

I could be wrong, but I believe he might be referring to the one a few weeks ago where a member was posting pictures of his wife and guns. Then deleted them saying he was leaving INGO or something. The thread was then closed, then a mod, (I can't remember which one) said they were opening it back up for some reason that I also can't remember.

Honestly, I tried searching for it to link, but just got tired of looking and not finding. lol.

I could be wrong, but Im assuming that is at least the most recent thread that it happened in.

yep that one and the one by firecop where he compared us to the Oklahoma city bomber. it was closed, he was banned and it was reopened to bash him.