Signs, signs, everywhere are signs...

[Hammerhead]

The family and I went up to Greenwood this evening to do some shopping. I was, as usual, open carrying (this isn't the issue, please don't turn this into a debate over carry) and aside from one guy staring at my firearm, had no notable interactions with people. We decided on a few extra stops than we planned, and one of them was at Flower Factory.

I'd been up there a few weeks ago, open carrying, and no one said word one to me. However, I get up to the doors today, and I see:

Now, I stopped and read the text of the sign and tried to ponder it's meaning. I hesitated about going into the store OCing, but decided that due to it's poor wording, they couldn't possibly be serious. But as I walked into the store and gave it more thought, I second guessed myself and told the wife that I'd be back. I walked out the doors and back to my car to grab my over shirt.

I returned to the store to find my family and since they weren't finding what they were looking for, I was looking to get the heck out of there. However I decided to find out what the deal with these new signs were. I sent my family out to the car and walked to the customer service desk, and spoke with the lady behind the counter. Here's the conversation we had.

Her: "Hi, can I help you?"

Me: "Yeah, is there a manager available?"

Her: "Something I can do for you?" (She didn't actually say she was a manager, nor did her name tag ID her as such)

Me: "Uh...yeah, I was wondering about the signs you've posted on your door."

Her: "What about them?"

Me: "Why were they put up?"

Her: "It came from corporate. I don't know why."

Me: "Do you realize they're contradictory?"

Her: "How so?"

Me: "Well, in Indiana, we don't have concealed carry permits, we have a license to carry a handgun, and they don't need to be concealed..."

Her: Cutting me off, "Well, they just came from corporate and we were told to put them up. We're an Ohio company and that's just what they wanted."

Me: Lightbulb goes off in my head, "Oohh, ok. I'll just contact corporate. Thanks!"

So, now I decided to go take a picture with my phone. I didn't get a close up enough to make it visible (especially for the crappy unnecessary text at the bottom), so I came back with my camera and took better photos. I also decided that I'd come and let you folks know. I was going to say something about a victim disarmament zone, and how they hold no weight of law in IN, despite what Ohio corporations might think.

They decided that these signs were so important, that they posted them on both the entrance and exit doors (facing outwards, of course) and on both the inside and outside set of doors.

Now I have not, as of yet, actually gone and contacted corporate. However I do plan to at least by tomorrow. You folks are welcome to as well.

Here's the Flower Factory contact us page.

Have fun!


EDIT: On a suggestion I'm going to let everyone know that this issue has been resolved. After contacting Flower Factory Corporate, they have agreed that the signs are not worth offending customers and will be removing them from their stores. Please, if you contact them now, let them know you're pleased they were level headed and listen to their customers.

Thanks!

 

[beararms1776]

If they would just let the employees carry, they wouldn't need those signs.

 

[Hammerhead]

They used to have a wall of weapons at the front of the store. It was a nice display of cheap swords, nunchucks, knives, basically a bunch of crap that you find at a flea market, or on cheap internet sites. They don't have them all displayed now, but I still saw a few available for sale, you just have to ask.

If they'd needed to defend themselves, they could have had all the melee weapons they could grab when the zombies got there.

 

[Beau]

I seem to remember a thread about a bank that was based in Ohio, but not in Ohio, banning carry. They referenced Ohio law on their signs stating it was illegal to carry in the bank.

Really not much you can do except voice your displeasure with corporate and let them know that signs have no weight of law in IN. I doubt you will get them to reverse their stance but at the same time, to try is better than doing nothing.

 

[Hammerhead]

It was obvious that the lady I was speaking to didn't care anything about gun law, Indiana laws, or constitutional rights. I got the distinct feeling that had I even attempted any conversation that tried to educate her about it, she'd just get that thousand yard stare and smile and nod, but not give a . So I decided not to waste my breath pushing an issue when she so clearly didn't want to worry over such details.


So I'll contact corporate and hope anyone willing will do the same.

And I'll keep my concealed weapon concealed while carrying my legal license to carry a handgun in my pocket, y'know, since my non-existent concealed carry permit doesn't cut the mustard with them.

 

[lawrra]

I seem to remember a thread about a bank that was based in Ohio, but not in Ohio, banning carry. They referenced Ohio law on their signs stating it was illegal to carry in the bank.

Really not much you can do except voice your displeasure with corporate and let them know that signs have no weight of law in IN. I doubt you will get them to reverse their stance but at the same time, to try is better than doing nothing.

I remember seeing these signs when I went to school in Ohio. They are backed by law there, and an ignorant corporation may think it will have the same effect in other states.

I don't like them.

 

[jd4320t]

I had some spare time so I sent them a message. -1 Flower Factory

 

[PatriotPride]

EPIC FAIL. If they're going to post a sign, they should at least verify that the information is correct.

 

[Roadie]

SO just OC, the sign doesnt say anything about that

 

[OneBadV8]

SO just OC, the sign doesnt say anything about that

I think that's covered under the "No Firearms" part of the sign.

 

[Hammerhead]

SO just OC, the sign doesnt say anything about that

That was my original thought too. "Doesn't say I can't open carry, just says I can't conceal." I didn't feel like provoking the sheep or worrying about a trespass issue.

 

[Hammerhead]

My e-mail I just fired off to the address listed on the contact us page of Flower Factory's website:



To whom it may concern:

My wife and I have been visiting your establishment, specifically your store located in Greenwood, IN for several years now. My wife has had a personal membership (even though you recently did away with those) and we've shopped there regularly since it seems you carry a few things that can't be found elsewhere.

However, at the present time, I believe I will refrain from visiting your store and spending any more money on your products due to a new corporate policy that was implemented recently.

Last evening, my family and I visited your Greenwood, IN store once again, and upon arriving at the front door of your store, I could not help but notice the multiple signs posted that now banned the carry of legally owned firearms within your establishment. Because this store is located in Indiana, where we are less restricted in our gun laws, your signage and policy do not make any sense for legally carrying a firearm.

In Indiana, your signs do not carry the weight of law, meaning that you are allowed to post them, of course, however they cannot be enforced legally by law enforcement or the courts. If your policy is to limit the carry of legally owned firearms, the most that can happen is to ask a legal firearms carrier to leave the premises, and if they refuse, to press a no trespass issue with law enforcement. I realize that being an Ohio based company, you generally are concerned with the laws in your own state, however in this instance, your policy has not been researched well.

The signage you had your store employees post not only can't be enforced by law, they are contradictory to Indiana law in what they state can or can't be done. The text as I saw (and took pictures to share with fellow gun owners/carriers; attached) states "A valid concealed carry permit does not authorize you to carry a concealed weapon onto these premises." Indiana does not have a concealed carry permit as Ohio does. We are given a License To Carry a Handgun (LTCH) by our state. Our LTCH does not require that we carry our legally owned and carried handguns concealed on our persons out in public. We are legally allowed to carry our firearms concealed or openly as we see fit, so long as we do so with a legal and valid LTCH. Ohio law, (and Michigan, as I know you have a store there too) allows for the legal open carry of firearms without a license or permit. You are not required in these states to conceal your legally owned/carried firearm. However, in both Ohio and Michigan, you are only allowed to conceal a firearm if you have a permit to do so. Where the laws in these three states vary is the posting of signage and the enforcement thereof. Not only does your signage ignore the possibility of a legally carried firearm openly carried by a citizen, you only restrict the carry of firearms concealed in that text. The failure on your company's part to research and properly abide by the state laws where your stores are located reflects poorly on the company. I do realize that the signage does state "No firearms allowed", however the included text fails to recognize even Ohio state law.

Do you realize, however, that by posting these types of signs on your doors as customers walk in that you are announcing to the public that you are creating an environment where your customers are not able to protect themselves or possibly your store employees if there were criminals who came in to do them harm or steal your property or money? Because you fail to recognize the chance that a legal firearms owner/carrier can save lives in your stores, you have now created a victim-disarmament zone where criminals can feel free to perpetrate crime without fear of being stopped or deterred.

Myself and my fellow Indiana law abiding, LTCH carrying, legal firearms owner/carriers must go through a background check by the state and federal government to own and carry legal firearms. We have never been convicted of a felony, nor a crime with a sentence of over one year, we have no mental defects or disabilities, nor do we abuse alcohol or use/abuse drugs, nor are we prone to emotionally unstable or violent acts. All of these things are required by law or we would not be issued a valid LTCH.

However, you restrict the carry of firearms (and specifically call out those of us who carry legally, even if it was not correctly stated) and state that our firearms, and by extension those who carry them, are not welcome. This may provide you and your employees with a false sense of security as you have "banned the carry of firearms" within your stores. However, you fail to recognize that we as the most law abiding citizens you will find, are the only ones who might give your signage any thought. Criminals, by definition, do not care what law or policy they are breaking when they commit crime, even in your "safe" stores. Not only are legal firearms owners/carriers a deterrent to crime, especially if they are open carrying a firearm, they are willing to protect not only themselves and their families, but generally those around them in the event of a criminal attack. By posting a policy that gives legal firearms owners/carriers pause before entering your stores, or persuades them to not patronize your establishments at all, are you willing to protect those customers and employees who are now vulnerable to crime?

Criminals fear not police, nor security enforcement, but retaliation by the public they prey upon. Criminals are deterred from committing crimes where they may be placing themselves in danger, especially if they are not aware of who may or may not be armed and able to defend themselves when attacked. Criminals try to find the path of least resistance when committing crime, and if they cannot reasonably be certain that they will not be harmed by those they seek to harm, they will most certainly be more willing to commit their crimes freely. By posting blatantly that you prefer your customers to be unable to defend themselves or others, you send a loud and clear message to criminals that they are free to commit their crimes without fear.

I sincerely hope that your employees and company do not suffer the consequences of your hoplophobic and tapinophobic policies (hoplophobia - the fear of firearms or weapons; tapinophobia - the fear of inanimate objects) if and when a criminal takes the opportunity to perpetrate a crime against them. My legally owned/carried firearm is safe when kept in my holster, as are any legally owned/carried firearm. Your employees nor your other customers have a need to fear any legally owned/carried firearm when carried properly by a generally well trained LTCH carrier. We realize that our firearms are for our defense and the defense of others, and we do not as rule brandish our firearms unless we are threatened with serious bodily harm. Our firearms remain safely where we keep them, unless we intend to use them to prevent harm or death. Criminals do not.

While I can only hope that the rational discussion and consideration of your policies can lead to the removal of your anti-firearms signage at your stores, especially in a state where they hold no weight of law, I can only vote with my wallet, and petition my fellow firearms owners/carriers do the same. In the event that I am in your retail store where you have attempted to disarm rational, law abiding citizens, I hope that my, or any other legally carried firearm will be available to defend your employees and customers should the need arise, as I will still continue to carry as I am legally allowed, even with your unnecessary company policy. I will just make sure that my legally owned/carried firearm will not be visible to the public. While I generally, personally, carry my legally owned/carried firearm openly to help deter crime, to help show the public that the legal carry and ownership of firearms is not taboo, and to help educate those who fear law abiding citizens who wish to defend themselves and others, I will be happy to make an exception and cover my legally owned/carried firearm to keep the illusion of safety in your stores. However, I don't see that happening unless and until you decide to remove the signs and welcome legal firearm owners/carriers without prejudice or fear. If and when you do decide to welcome the legal firearm owning/carrying public back into your stores, I will be happy to return to shop there, as will others who believe as I do and who will probably also refrain from shopping there until you do.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

 

[Cru]

My e-mail I just fired off to the address listed on the contact us page of Flower Factory's website:


I sincerely hope that your employees and company do not suffer the consequences of your hoplophobic and tapinophobic policies (hoplophobia - the fear of firearms or weapons; tapinophobia - the fear of inanimate objects) if and when a criminal takes the opportunity to perpetrate a crime against them. My legally owned/carried firearm is safe when kept in my holster, as are any legally owned/carried firearm. Neither Your employees nor your other customers have a need to fear any legally owned/carried firearm when carried properly by a generally well trained LTCH carrier. We realize that our firearms are for our defense and the defense of others, and we do not as rule brandish our firearms unless we are threatened with serious bodily harm. Our firearms remain safely where we keep them, unless we intend to use them to prevent harm or death. Criminals do not.

,[/I]

Well written, but I had to fix the one sentence because it was bugging me. (I just got out of English class)

 

[Hammerhead]

Success! I received a reply from the HR manager at Flower Factory, and they have re-considered their policies and will be removing the signs from all their retail locations. They thought the signs would be helpful for employee and customer safety. I guess they realize that a pretty piece of paper is no defense like the cold hard steel and hot lead a properly carried firearm can provide.

+100 to Flower Factory

I'll post her exact reply when I get permission to do so, but it's pretty much what I've said here.

 

[eldirector]

Seriously? Post the reply. I gotta see this!

 

[451_Detonics]

With permission I would like to save that letter for future use, it is so well worded I don't think I could improve on it but it would be nice to just change the name of the business when I run into a similar situation.

 

[Stschil]

Outstanding letter! I especially like your arguement/explaination for OC. I've struggled at times when asked by a bystander. With your permission, I am adding it to my inventory of answers.

 

[wwdkd]

+1 on the letter.

With permission I would like to save that letter for future use, it is so well worded I don't think I could improve on it but it would be nice to just change the name of the business when I run into a similar situation.

I would like to do the same thing, with owners permission of course

 

[E5RANGER375]

well im glad that signs hold no weight of law in indiana. i will just CC from now on to flower factory.

or we could stage a flower factory membership card burning rally

 

[Prometheus]

Success! I received a reply from the HR manager at Flower Factory, and they have re-considered their policies and will be removing the signs from all their retail locations. They thought the signs would be helpful for employee and customer safety. I guess they realize that a pretty piece of paper is no defense like the cold hard steel and hot lead a properly carried firearm can provide.

+100 to Flower Factory

I'll post her exact reply when I get permission to do so, but it's pretty much what I've said here.

That is awesome!