Wait - the guy at the gunshop told me birdshot was all I needed for home defense

[Glock21]

So, just as Awerbuck has tried to tell everyone, birdshot works just like a slug for the first three meters, and is then pretty much useless after 9-meters.

Three people shot in the next room, no one dead.

...and yes, it has to be birdshot. 1-he was out hunting. 2- unless the three people were in a group hug, it wasn't buckshot.

Birdshot vs meth head wearing a leather jacket, not a good bet.


Three People Accidentally Shot In Harlan Co.

The 9-1-1 call came from this residence saying three people, Jason Maggard, his wife Carie and their one-month-old baby Ashley, had been accidentally shot by Southerland.

"He was unloading a shotgun, it accidentally discharged, and penetrated the wall, the round did. Then the pellets went through the wall and hit three subjects in the next room," said Trooper Walt Meachum.

Jason Maggard was flown to UK Medical Center, while baby Ashley was flown to UT Medical Center for their injuries. Carie was taken to Harlan ARH where she was treated and released.

Police say the while the incident is being looked into as an accident, charges could still could be filed against Southerland.

Police say Michael Southerland was unloading the gun using a pumping action while his finger was still on the trigger, which Meachum says would cause any rounds in the gun to go off.

"What he was doing was sitting there racking back and forth like this to eject them instead of racking back and ejecting them like I just showed you," said Meachum.

We spoke with someone who was at the scene and has been in contact with the victims. He declined to be on camera, but said Ashley Maggard is expected to be brought home soon. Jason has already been released.
Meachum says accidents like this can easily be avoided.

"My advice is if you're going to be unloading a weapon if you've been out hunting, unload it before you bring it in the house."

He says becoming educated on gun safety is crucial, and the earlier the better.

You can find out more about gun safety courses at your county Sheriff's Office.

 

[6birds]

"Birdshot", kind of a generic term. Was he shooting an "assult shotgun"?
Lead, Heavishot, steel?
#8's, #6's, #2's?
2 /34", 3", 3 1/2"?
How thick was the drywall? What was the distance to the "next room", 10, 20, 30 ft?

It'll all make a difference.

 

[Glock21]

"Birdshot", kind of a generic term. Was he shooting an "assult shotgun"?
Lead, Heavishot, steel?
#8's, #6's, #2's?
2 /34", 3", 3 1/2"?
How thick was the drywall? What was the distance to the "next room", 10, 20, 30 ft?

It'll all make a difference.

Sure, if a baby is directly on the other side of the drywall, and you shoot from 3-meters - dead baby. Drug user with a knife and wearing a winter coat, down the hallway, don't be shocked when he doesn't stop charging after you shoot him.

But if we have chosen the shotgun for home defense, why are we limiting the lethality of the ammunition? The huge plus of the shotgun is that it is the most lethal small arm one can buy and own without a Federal permit.

Buckshot to the torso generally results in a trip to the morgue. Birdshot...well, ask Cheney's hunting buddy how that works.

The shotgun is long, heavy, takes quite a bit of manipulation to operate (load/unload/work bolt), so if we are limiting the ammunition because we live in an appartment, or something, then perhaps we need to consider a different firearm.

All that aside, my main point here is that the idea of birdshot being some sort of fight stopper couldn't be any further from the truth. Have people died from it? Sure. Do I want to be shot with it? Of course not. But it's like showing up to race the INDY 500 with a pickup truck - you're intentionally handicapping yourself.

 

[theweakerbrother]

You want cavitation damage and according to some data presented at the trauma class, number #4 birdshot seems to do the job pretty well.

I couldn't find an imagine but here is a similar one.... with similar results:

 

[Hoosierbuck]

Go to "theboxotruth.com" and check out his tests with birdshot. I am firmly convinced that birdshot is strictly for clays and the birds. Bad guy shot (I.e. buckshot and slugs) are for bad guys, in my book. You do whatever your book tells you to do, and I will do likewise.

 

[IndianaResident]

You want cavitation damage and according to some data presented at the trauma class, number #4 birdshot seems to do the job pretty well.

I couldn't find an imagine but here is a similar one.... with similar results:

I'd like to see that gelatin block from the entry or exit side. The shot looks really tight, like it chewed a large tunnel in, but in reality it's probably 36 little holes near each other.

Not that that's not damaging, I'm just saying the lateral shots don't demonstrate the entry or exit patterns, just the penetration ones.

 

[iamaclone45]

Not gonna lie. I keep my home defense 870 magazine tube loaded with Remington Home Defense shot shells ( tungsten-bronze #2 & #4 shot). I live in an apartment complex with thin thin walls and I don't feel like shooting the neighbors.

I do keep Federal Tactical 00 buck and a couple Remington slugs close in the side saddle though.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

All the shotgun shootings that I've had have been deer slugs, all very effective. I've had a lot of guys show me bird shot wounds. They all told me it stung but did not slow them down (one was shot right in the backside, biker chaps stopped the pellets in his legs).

He was unloading a shotgun

My money is on jacking rounds through the chamber.

Remember, even if you do not pull the trigger, a firearm may still discharge each time you load and unload the weapon, especially if it is a platform with an inertia firing pin.

Don't make me tell the Shootrite Shotgun again.

 

[Hoosierbuck]

All the shotgun shootings that I've had have been deer slugs, all very effective.

Oh man, that's no lie. I have one (well actually a twofer) like that going to trial in February.

I did have one guy that was not hurt too bad, just a big, round 12 gauge hole through his trapezius. Kinda like a mega-piercing.

Also had one girl put a load of birdshot through the roof of her mouth. Fatal. Very.

 

[rhino]

The thing I like about slugs is that they perform like slugs at 3 meters and perform like slugs at 25 meters too.

 

[rbrthenderson]

The thing I like about slugs is that they perform like slugs at 3 meters and perform like slugs at 25 meters too.

HaHa

I just bought my Mossberg this week and I have it loaded with Winchester PDX1. It's a 1oz. slug with 3 pellets of 00 Buck. Best of both worlds I'm thinking. But I'm fairly new to shotguns so I'm not one to quote.

 

[andrewheath]

That reminds me of the conversation I overheard at Dicks sporting goods Sunday where the guy behind the counter was pandering that a Shotgun with a capacity of more than three shells was considered a Weapon of Mass Destruction. I lol'd loud enough to make the two stop conversing and look at me like I was crazy.

 

[IndianaResident]

That reminds me of the conversation I overheard at Dicks sporting goods Sunday where the guy behind the counter was pandering that a Shotgun with a capacity of more than three shells was considered a Weapon of Mass Destruction. I lol'd loud enough to make the two stop conversing and look at me like I was crazy.

I'd look at you like you're crazy too, standing over there laughing loudly to yourself.

I can't back this up with numbers (or am not looking them up) but the Federal Lo-recoil would penetrate less than a full load 00, but presumably more than birdshot. Something to look into for you apartment dwellers.

 

[JoshuaW]

Sure, if a baby is directly on the other side of the drywall, and you shoot from 3-meters - dead baby. Drug user with a knife and wearing a winter coat, down the hallway, don't be shocked when he doesn't stop charging after you shoot him.

But if we have chosen the shotgun for home defense, why are we limiting the lethality of the ammunition? The huge plus of the shotgun is that it is the most lethal small arm one can buy and own without a Federal permit.

Buckshot to the torso generally results in a trip to the morgue. Birdshot...well, ask Cheney's hunting buddy how that works.

The shotgun is long, heavy, takes quite a bit of manipulation to operate (load/unload/work bolt), so if we are limiting the ammunition because we live in an appartment, or something, then perhaps we need to consider a different firearm.

All that aside, my main point here is that the idea of birdshot being some sort of fight stopper couldn't be any further from the truth. Have people died from it? Sure. Do I want to be shot with it? Of course not. But it's like showing up to race the INDY 500 with a pickup truck - you're intentionally handicapping yourself.

Since when did the feds issue a permit?

I think the thing with bird shot is not about leaving several small holes, it is the tearing through the flesh. The spread is supposed to increase the likelihood that it will tear into an artery, or so I understand.

Im not shotgun guy, and while I may have interest in one in the future, right now my walls are thin and I have little desire to buy and train with a completely new (to me) concept, so my understanding of them is primitive at best.

 

[VUPDblue]

I'd look at you like you're crazy too, standing over there laughing loudly to yourself.

I can't back this up with numbers (or am not looking them up) but the Federal Lo-recoil would penetrate less than a full load 00, but presumably more than birdshot. Something to look into for you apartment dwellers.

IIRC the velocity difference between the LE132-00 (low recoil) and the LE133-00 (standard) is on the order of 200fps, the former being in the 1200fps range and the latter being in the 1400fps range. I use the LE132 almost exclusively and whole-heartedly recommend it as a defensive round.

 

[Prometheus]

I don't have time to get into it but the notion of using birdshot for home defense is absurd on many levels.

Here is quick copy paste from saiga 12 I made on the subject:
I've got over a decade in EMS and now Trauma services on the definitive care side.

I can't believe the ignorance and sheer stupidity of those who advocate birdshot.

Lack of logic and deductive reasoning perhaps?

In any event, this has been covered by numerous other Medics, RNs and MDs... my thoughts aren't going to help those who are helplessly lacking in logic and reason.

For all those new comers, I don't see any buckshot cases now that I'm in the OR. They never make it upstairs.

Also, the craziness of loading half and half blows my mind. What sort of person can predict that not only will they bad guys run away at the "sound" but that there will only be one or maybe two intruders. Home invaders usually roll in packs.

Plenty of stories about home invaders deciding to shoot it out with home owners (even after being shot themselves) rather than turn and run. Are they bat**** crazy? Was it because there brother was their partner and they wanted revenge? All of the above.

Don't use birdshot... EVER, for those who only like soundbytes and pictures:

 

[CampingJosh]

Since when did the feds issue a permit?

He was likely referring to the tax stamp needed for NFA weapons.

 

[CampingJosh]

I've shot a raccoon at relatively close range (15 yards or so) with #6 shot and watched it scamper away up a tree. I know that I hit it (I found the corpse the next day), but it didn't immediately stop the creature.
If a solid hit doesn't stop a 20 lb. raccoon immediately, every time, then I don't want to rely on it to stop a 200 lb. man in a leather jacket on meth. A person does not have to be capable of much action to still be able to manipulate the trigger of a lethal weapon.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

Birdshot is ideal for self-defense if you're being attacked by a bird.

 

[thoffman]

Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition, .357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?

some info on home defense shotgun rounds