Urgent - Private Range Question!

[jss1956]

OK, so I live on the edge of an Indiana community of ~20,000. My subdivisionis right on the edge of the city limits. A week ago Sunday my son decides hewants to play some 2-on-2 so he moves the truck out into the street in front ofthe house. A couple of hours later, I walk out to move the truck back into thedriveway and find the back window of the cap on my truck shot out. Upon closerexamination both the back and the front window of the cap are shattered and theround had stopped on the back cab glass of the truck cab. Called local lawenforcement who investigated. After digging thru the glass I found a 9MM roundwhich I turned over to the police. So here's what happened:

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2752216860100676158eCzPmc

Responsible party owns a large amount of acreage that includes a hill.Property is just outside the city limits. Owner created a small target rangeand has been shooting various firearms into the hill for years and "neverhad a problem". The hill is directly east of my subdivision and his rangeis directly parallel with my street. So his line of fire is into the hill butdirectly towards the subdivision where I live. I've heard shots from this areafor years but didn't know where they were coming from. The area is hidden fromview and cannot be seen from any roads. Owner believes his 9-year-old sonaccidently shot a round high and it stopped in the back of my truck. Owner isdeeply concerned and asked me what he needed to do to "make itright". I told him he needed to do 2 things:

1. Pay for the damages to my truck

2. Stop shooting in the direction of my subdivision

OK so no problem on the damages. He's already taken care of that. But my concern is I believe the owner intends on making "some modifications"to his existing set up and start shooting again.

I've been shooting for 35 years and would never shoot in the direction of apopulated area, hill or no hill. I've been pretty calm about this but I'mextremely concerned about where this thing is going to end up. I measured thedistance and the 9MM round flew, .55 miles before smacking into my truck.Again, the property is outside the city limits. I would like some input fromthe readers here as to what they would in this situation.

 

[Dirtebiker]

It doesn't matter if he is in or out of "city limits"! He is responsible for keeping all rounds from leaving his property!
What did Leo say?
Sounds like you were a lot nicer than I would have been!

 

[Mike_Indy]

Seems like the local law enforcement for his property would have cause to shut him down. Property is apparently within range and direction of others.
Consider having him change the direction of his range to a truly safe direction, require an inspection and free range time-for life for you.

 

[nad63]

#3 Lifetime free membership to 'his' range

 

[philagothon]

Appleseed rule # 1: ALWAYS KEEP THE MUZZLE IN A SAFE DIRECTION! In his case, UP is not a safe direction. He needs to make sure all muzzles are kept pointed at the ground or berm at all times.

Since he is outside of city limits there is not likely much that can be done. Most ordinances require that no shooting be done within 100 yards of any residential structures. He is likely okay there. You can probably sue and get the guy in trouble, possibly even getting a judge to trample his property rights.

Personally, I'd encourage the guy to make a few safety changes and move on. Just a few changes I'd suggest: Firmly discipline/reprimand the kid. Move the kid closer to the berm. Make the berm bigger. Change the direction of fire so that overshots have a better backstop than your neighborhood. Make sure muzzles are pointed at the berm or ground at all times.

I understand you are justifiably upset about the incident, but I wouldn't want to make an example for the anti-2A crowd out of the guy. Find a gentlemanly way to settle it. And yea, free lifetime membership to his range should be a part of the agreement.

 

[IndyGunworks]

I am suprised at all the responses here really. If the bullet had enough force to break a window, it was going fast enough to kill if it hit the right spot. I would venture to say he is shooting more powerful stuff than 9mm also.

There is a good chance that bullets leave his property more often than this but this on did damage and was able to be recovered.

If it were me, i would be irate. I would tell him that he either moves the direction he his shooting or you will take legal action. How will you ever feel safe again while you are hearing gunshots? That my friend is trampling YOUR property rights so why should you do nothing in order to protect his?

Perhaps the NRA has a guide for outdoor ranges, i know they have one for indoor ranges. buy the copy and tell him if he complies with EVERYTHING in that book you will take it no farther, but what if your son had been playing in the back of your truck when that bullet came through?

Why are we concerned about HIS property rights, when you have bullets going through windows on YOUR property?

 

[nad63]

Not really concerned with "his" rights but should another round leave his property and kill someone then it likely won't be "his" anymore.

 

[Sarrsipius]

I think it's a big red flag that he's asking YOU what he needs to do. Jeez, if it were my range I would be re-disigning it to point in another direction yesterday. I'd consider myself EXTREMELY lucky that no one got hurt and do absolutely everything in my power to ensure there is no way anything like this would happen again. Then I'd be telling you what I was doing in the hopes you would be comfortable that I was doing everything possible. Maybe I'd ask if you thought I had missed anything or if there was anything more I could do but I wouldn't just ask and hope for the least amount of inconvenience as a result.

wow

 

[Bapak2ja]

It sounds to me like the range owner (RO) is trying to do the right thing. I appreciate that the OP has been controlled in his response, demonstrating the wisdom and self-control of gun owners.

I think the suggestions of finding good info to offer to the RO is a good approach. This will allow the OP to have more input on a regular basis to the range. Developing a friendly relationship with the RO is a good thing.

Of course, safety is vital. Changes must be made, but a good friendship and free range time can emerge from this if handled well.

Just glad it was only a truck that was damaged in the initial event.

 

[kludge]

If his son fired a round that ended up in your truck, that borders on criminal negligence.

I've seen the NRA book; there's no way that 99% of personal ranges will ever meet all the requirements in that book.

You did the right thing by involving LEO.

Get a satellite image of the area. Press the land owner to change the direction of his range. Ask to be invited to his property to inspect the changes... if he resists doing any changes, then consider getting a lawyer and talking to the county prosecutor.

Broach the subject with something like "I though some more about our conversation and..."

 

[cosermann]

News flash, if you live east of the Mississippi, you're most likely firing toward a populated area; it's just a matter of how far. How about indoor ranges in cities? Yup, firing toward populated areas. They are proof that ranges CAN be designed safely - even in comparatively densely populated areas.

Personally, I'd be satisfied if certain modifications were made. There are modifications that can be made to control muzzle rise. He should get some of the literature on the subject if he doesn't already have it and make said modifications.

How tall is the hill he's using as a backstop and how long is his range?

 

[Reggywill]

The NRA Range Guide is only $20 for the .PDF version. I purchased it myself since I'm constructing a range currently. Great info and a lot safety precautions that I would of not thought of without first reading it. If you don't have a safe range, then you shouldn't be shooting there PERIOD! Being safe with a firearm doesn't end with just knowing how to properly handle and fire one.

 

[chuddly]

You wont get "free range time" from a persons private property that technically doesnt own a range. He is just shooting on his property. That would be like telling you that I am allowed to go in your house when ever i want to because your basketball landed in my yard (i know this is and extreme example on my part).

I would probly try to get the guy to change direction in which he shoots and i DEFINATLY would keep an eye on my 9yr old better then he does because if he didnt know if he sent a round high then he wasnt watching close enough. In the end he is responsible for keeping the bullets on his property bar none...end of story...period. As long as he does that then none of us have any right to tell him what he can or cant do

 

[jss1956]

Thanks to all for your input. A couple of additional details about this incident:

1. At the request of my wife I'm really trying to be cool about this issue. If it weren't for her, I would not be nearly as civil as I've been.

2. I'm not sure how high the hill is. The slope is very gradual, probably a 20' height over a 200-300' length if that makes sense.

3. I've tried to convience the property owner to shoot downhill versus his current set up as he owns both the hill and the field where he is now standingand shooting. This just doesn't seem to compute with him. He is worried about "too much noise" by standing on the hill and shooting down. I have been shooting for 20+ years in such an area and it's 4/5 mile before you get to anything (a woods). In shooting downhill, it would give him a much greater length before there is a populated area.

4. As a gun owner and avid shooter, I respect his desire to shoot. But the fact that my neighbors and I live in direct line of his firing range does not make me feel comfortable. Even with a significant backstop, I personally would never fire in the direction of someones home within 3/4 mile.

 

[netsecurity]

Letting a 9 year old shoot a 9mm pistol going to produce some wildly innacurrate shots. When I was that old I'd shoot at every brd flying overhead. Besides, a 9yo can't handle 9mm recoil in a pistol. Maybe he was using a 9mm carbine.

 

[cosermann]

A 20' backstop should be more than adequate if the rest of the arrangement is setup properly to prohibit muzzle rise (a backstop doesn't do any good if you shoot over it).

Glad you're being cool about it. Stay cool. This was probably a wakeup call for the guy and it will never happen again. He doesn't sound like like a total goof.

 

[dlbrown75]

Letting a 9 year old shoot a 9mm pistol going to produce some wildly innacurrate shots. When I was that old I'd shoot at every brd flying overhead. Besides, a 9yo can't handle 9mm recoil in a pistol. Maybe he was using a 9mm carbine.

Not true. My son is 9, barely 60 pounds if that and controls recoil.

 

[dlbrown75]

A 20' backstop should be more than adequate if the rest of the arrangement is setup properly to prohibit muzzle rise (a backstop doesn't do any good if you shoot over it).

Glad you're being cool about it. Stay cool. This was probably a wakeup call for the guy and it will never happen again. He doesn't sound like like a total goof.

++1

 

[Dead Duck]

My 8 year old little girl is "scary" accurate with my g-26 although she can't rack the slide yet. I started her at 6 cause she was just too dangerous to be around my guns at 5.

 

[cwillour]

If the slope is that gradual, it is of limited use as a backstop since a skip could happen way too easily. He really needs a near vertical 15-20' berm and to keep the targets within a few yards of it if he will be level or up-hill.

I really agree with your thought on shooting downhill. He may be correct about the noise, but the noise is a nuisance at that point versus the threat of a stray round (besides, shooting downhill onto a flat with a berm behind is a good way to control the round on those misses.)