Try it!

[giovani]

I don't care if people want to homeschool but it bothers me that they advocate the destruction of public schools. My child's public school system is great. They do a great job of teaching history, math, writing, etc. Contrary to the beliefs of many homeschoolers, things like manners, politics, etc are generally picked up through parenting.

If you choose to homeschool and have the free time to do it then good for you. But from my perspective, most of the fears of public education that I hear from homeschoolers are unfounded.

It appears akin to religion, if they can convince someone else it makes their belief stronger.

I have not witnessed the terrible public school situation either, and I actually have been on both sides, home and public.

 

[RockofStrength]

I don't care if people want to homeschool but it bothers me that they advocate the destruction of public schools. My child's public school system is great. They do a great job of teaching history, math, writing, etc. Contrary to the beliefs of many homeschoolers, things like manners, politics, etc are generally picked up through parenting.

If you choose to homeschool and have the free time to do it then good for you. But from my perspective, most of the fears of public education that I hear from homeschoolers are unfounded.

Many homeschoolers have had the opportunity to look into the history of public schools. I have plenty of public schooled/former public schooled friends: they are intelligent, bright, cheery etc. That doesn't diminish the effects of Mr. Dewey who said:

Children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society which is coming where everyone is interdependent.

Or of Mr. Horace Mann, who brought public schooling across from Prussia:

We, then, who are engaged in the sacred cause of education, are entitled to look upon all parents as having given hostages to our cause.

They wanted an educated populace, indeed. But not for the benefit of the individual, which is what any parent wants and indeed what even many teachers want to do.

The men who designed our public education system did so to mold children for the good of society, and the state. In many ways this is difficult to distinguish this from what is good for the individual, since society needs moral, honest people in order to function as much as the individual does and these men knew that. But they also wished specifically to reduce the influence parents had in order to mold society collectively towards specific ends. They weren't Saturday morning cartoon villains who wanted to dominate children's minds into stupidity: rather they wanted to ensure that society would grow and thrive collectively, to the detriment and eventual demise of the individualist spirit. They truly believed that if a sufficient number of intelligent men like themselves could rise to power and change the way the children were educated as a whole that they could better society. It was and remains an example of benign intellectual elitism.

Indeed, it was first pitched as a means to ensure that New England would remain uniformly Protestant against the waves of Catholic immigrants from Europe. How ironic then the cries against religion in a public school nowadays...

All that aside...it indeed miffs many homeschoolers to be forbidden to use many of the public facilities they pay for, setting aside paying for other people's children to be educated. Homeschoolers are human too, and bitterness can indeed spring up particularly amongst poorer homeschoolers who make big sacrifices in order to teach their children.

 

[Tsigos]

Many homeschoolers have had the opportunity to look into the history of public schools. I have plenty of public schooled/former public schooled friends: they are intelligent, bright, cheery etc. That doesn't diminish the effects of Mr. Dewey who said:



Or of Mr. Horace Mann, who brought public schooling across from Prussia:



They wanted an educated populace, indeed. But not for the benefit of the individual, which is what any parent wants and indeed what even many teachers want to do.

The men who designed our public education system did so to mold children for the good of society, and the state. In many ways this is difficult to distinguish this from what is good for the individual, since society needs moral, honest people in order to function as much as the individual does and these men knew that. But they also wished specifically to reduce the influence parents had in order to mold society collectively towards specific ends. They weren't Saturday morning cartoon villains who wanted to dominate children's minds into stupidity: rather they wanted to ensure that society would grow and thrive collectively, to the detriment and eventual demise of the individualist spirit. They truly believed that if a sufficient number of intelligent men like themselves could rise to power and change the way the children were educated as a whole that they could better society. It was and remains an example of benign intellectual elitism.

Indeed, it was first pitched as a means to ensure that New England would remain uniformly Protestant against the waves of Catholic immigrants from Europe. How ironic then the cries against religion in a public school nowadays...

Again, I think your fears are more imagined than real. If you wish to homeschool, good for you. Many of our great innovators and business leaders were the product of public education. Would we be better as a society if such opportunities did not exist for them?

 

[RockofStrength]

Again, I think your fears are more imagined than real. If you wish to homeschool, good for you. Many of our great innovators and business leaders were the product of public education. Would we be better as a society if such opportunities did not exist for them?

Many of our great innovators and business leaders were also not the products of public education. Again, public school doesn't make you stupid, and few homeschoolers would ever believe it does as many of the "teachers" were products of that system. Several public schooled friends of mine could do calculus and advanced physics equations that I simply refused to even attempt they were so complex.

I dislike the assumption that without public schooling, innovators, engineers, scientists, good politicians, etc would simply not exist and we would all be stuck either homeschooling or sifting through garbage bins. The Federalist Papers are some of the most complex and well-thought-out documents I have ever read: few of the men who wrote them had any formal schooling at all. Many indeed had less of a home education and more of a self education. To presume that without a place to send kids to be collectively educated we would lack for intelligent people is to ignore our own history.

 

[Tsigos]

The Federalist Papers are some of the most complex and well-thought-out documents I have ever read: few of the men who wrote them had any formal schooling at all. Many indeed had less of a home education and more of a self education. To presume that without a place to send kids to be collectively educated we would lack for intelligent people is to ignore our own history.

To say that James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay were self-educated is truly to ignore history. All were the product of expensive private education.

 

[rhino]

I have no genetic replicants at this time. If and when I do, I intend to educate them myself. Fortunately, I am confidant that I can take them at least through any undergraduat level math or science, which is usually the sticking point for some home schoolers.

 

[RockofStrength]

To say that James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay were self-educated is truly to ignore history. All were the product of expensive private education.

Which is still not public education, oddly enough, and hardly equivalent to a public school. As 88GT said, there is more beyond public/home schooling.

I agree that my example of the Federalist Papers authors was a bad one, however. I had forgotten that although two of those men were indeed homeschooled, it was hardly by their parents but rather through expensive tutoring which was not what we were discussing and of course each had a family sufficiently positioned to afford to send them to a college as well. My apologies, I should have ensured that my assertions were more thorough and correct.

Better examples would include men such as these:

Benjamin Franklin, who was a prolific inventor and a prominent statesmen who nonetheless ceased any formal education at the age of 10 owing to a lack of funds and instead read voraciously to compensate.

Samuel Chase, representative for Maryland in signing the Declaration of Independence and also an Associate Justice for the U.S. Supreme Court. He was also by many accounts a rather dishonest businessman who used his political connections for business gain, but unfortunately homeschooling isn't a miracle cure for dishonesty.

George Clymer, Signatory of both the Declaration and the Constitution, who aided the first Secretary of the Treasury in fulfilling his duties in addition to other career endeavors.

Roger Sherman, a Lawyer who holds the distinction of being the only one having signed the four major documents of our land: the Constitution, the Declaration, The Articles of Confederation, and the Continental Association. The majority of his education was his father's library and the friendly association of Reverend Samuel Dumbar.

 

[Survivalcookie]

We home schooled our children up to the 7th grade, we meaning 80% my wife and 20% myself.
They are in public highschool now and There is no way We could do them justice as educators at this level.

Their chemistry teacher graduated top of her class from Westpoint, and there is no lady gaga in her curiculum I assure you.

Thank you had this discussion the other night...that I cannot teach trig or chemistry.

 

[5.56'aholic]

Home schooling rules out the constant drone of the un-important distractions. Parents who decide to strictly home school their children effectively remove their children from the political onslaught of immorality. The problem is, is that these kids are left with no way to defend themselves intellectually from the brain washed subculture known as liberalism. What we need is a balnced medium. And by balanced I am in no way implying our current presidents' view of submit and conquer.

 

[Survivalcookie]

88GT and I had a lengthy conversation about home school, private school VS public school in another thread. The way I look at it if you want to home school your kid, that is great, it is your business. If you can afford the 10-15 grand a year for private school...that to is great.
When I said all parents cannot home school she called me a liar, when I said children with learning disabilities get services in public school they cannot get when home schooled and many people who home school and do private school also use public school services. Again she called me a liar and said those home school families are evil for using those services. She told me I did not have a clue what I was talking about. I have been sending kids to school for over 30 years...I know exactly what is going on in my grand kids school. I brought up my daughter who is a single mom and works 12-14 hours a day sometimes has to travel and is trying to finish her degree...she said she could home school. I bought up my friend who also is a single mom who has 3 children with severe autism...if those kids did not go to school on the governments dime she could not work and would have to be on welfare. Her answer was what would she had done 200 years ago...Most likely the children would have been put in an institution or died 200 years ago.
Her problem is she don't want to pay for public schools....I say move to where you don't have to. She says my experiences don't make me a credible person to have this discussion with her...yet she thinks her's does....I like paying to make sure all kids can get an education. I love public school...I moved to a place that I love the schools. And by the way...I have a 6th grader who tested out at grade 13 in reading...I would say the public school is doing a great job. You cannot get a better deal than public school...I do not like the feds involved in education I really think the department of education should go away and leave it up to the states.

 

[Lucas156]

What I remember about high school is being so bored because the speed of the classes were all so slow. How much more could a fast paced learner achieve if they could be taught as an individual at their speed and level? Right now the classes only go as fast as the slowest kid in the room. No offense but doesn't that short change the people with way more learning potential? The system is obviously broken.

 

[Survivalcookie]

Home schooling rules out the constant drone of the un-important distractions. Parents who decide to strictly home school their children effectively remove their children from the political onslaught of immorality. The problem is, is that these kids are left with no way to defend themselves intellectually from the brain washed subculture known as liberalism. What we need is a balnced medium. And by balanced I am in no way implying our current presidents' view of submit and conquer.

OO bull I seen the little home school girls who's mom worked have boys over during the day that was cutting public school. Parents who are partners with their child's teacher...keep in touch with them...spend time at night helping with home work...talking around the dinner table about what they learned that day are just as connect to their kids as home schooled.

 

[Survivalcookie]

What I remember about high school is being so bored because the speed of the classes were all so slow. How much more could a fast paced learner achieve if they could be taught as an individual at their speed and level? Right now the classes only go as fast as the slowest kid in the room. No offense but doesn't that short change the people with way more learning potential? The system is obviously broken.

I do feel that way about elementary school...if you are not in the gifted program they try to make up classes where the kids are close in learning abilities. Our Middle school and HS offers 3 levels of classes, These classes are based on your state test scores, plus in HS you can get some college courses. And something I think is wonder is the HS that have career centers where kids can go learn a trade like welding or mechanics. All kids are not college material and there is just not enough jobs for college graduates, why pay all that money and be in debt for most of your life to go work at Burger king. I heard somewhere the other day only 25 percent of college grads go to work in their field of study.

 

[RockofStrength]

Her problem is she don't want to pay for public schools....I say move to where you don't have to. She says my experiences don't make me a credible person to have this discussion with her...yet she thinks her's does....I like paying to make sure all kids can get an education. I love public school...I moved to a place that I love the schools. And by the way...I have a 6th grader who tested out at grade 13 in reading...I would say the public school is doing a great job. You cannot get a better deal than public school...I do not like the feds involved in education I really think the department of education should go away and leave it up to the states.

All data following comes from nces.ed.gov and concerns the 2007-2008 school year.

Avg amount spent per student on public school for 1 year: $12,744
Data Link
Avg amount spent per student on private school: $8,549
Data Link
Avg amount spent per student on Catholic schools: $6,018
Data Link

*Please note that the data sheet is the same for Catholic and private schools: simply refer to the section specific to private school or Catholic school for the proper information.

Although I could not find homeschooling specific information, I might disagree with you on that. Public schools spend more on average to teach a child. Therefore, not only are they not a better value, they in fact are only considered to be cheaper by virtue of being paid for by people who do not use the service.

 

[88GT]

I don't care if people want to homeschool but it bothers me that they advocate the destruction of public schools. My child's public school system is great. They do a great job of teaching history, math, writing, etc. Contrary to the beliefs of many homeschoolers, things like manners, politics, etc are generally picked up through parenting.

If you choose to homeschool and have the free time to do it then good for you. But from my perspective, most of the fears of public education that I hear from homeschoolers are unfounded.

So you support socialized education. Do you also support socialized medicine? And you wonder why I want it destroyed?

Tell me, how do you justify forcing other people to pay for your children's education? The same way you oppose being forced to pay for someone else's medical care?

Again, I think your fears are more imagined than real. If you wish to homeschool, good for you. Many of our great innovators and business leaders were the product of public education. Would we be better as a society if such opportunities did not exist for them?

What a crock! As I said when this illogical nonsense was brought up before, there is no indication that these "great" people would have been relegated to the trash heap of history without the sacred cow of government schools.

We would be better off as a society if people didn't feel it was justifiable theft to cover someone else's responsibilities. And I have supreme confidence that if government schools disappeared tomorrow, the market would quickly and easily fill the vacuum. And probably do it better.

To say that James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay were self-educated is truly to ignore history. All were the product of expensive private education.

Who cares what the source of their education was as long as it wasn't government education? It belies the ridiculous argument that the state is necessary for education.

Thank you had this discussion the other night...that I cannot teach trig or chemistry.

Your perceived shortcomings notwithstanding, they are neither unchangeable nor as limiting to other parents as you let them limit you. Do you honestly think that every homeschooling parent knows every subject his or her children take? How do you think their kids learn those subjects? You presumably read RoS just tell us all that neither of his parents had any experience with pre-calc, and yet somehow they found a way to make sure he learned it. How do you suppose that happened?

 

[Survivalcookie]

So you support socialized education. Do you also support socialized medicine? And you wonder why I want it destroyed?

Tell me, how do you justify forcing other people to pay for your children's education? The same way you oppose being forced to pay for someone else's medical care?


What a crock! As I said when this illogical nonsense was brought up before, there is no indication that these "great" people would have been relegated to the trash heap of history without the sacred cow of government schools.

We would be better off as a society if people didn't feel it was justifiable theft to cover someone else's responsibilities. And I have supreme confidence that if government schools disappeared tomorrow, the market would quickly and easily fill the vacuum. And probably do it better.


Who cares what the source of their education was as long as it wasn't government education? It belies the ridiculous argument that the state is necessary for education.



Your perceived shortcomings notwithstanding, they are neither unchangeable nor as limiting to other parents as you let them limit you. Do you honestly think that every homeschooling parent knows every subject his or her children take? How do you think their kids learn those subjects? You presumably read RoS just tell us all that neither of his parents had any experience with pre-calc, and yet somehow they found a way to make sure he learned it. How do you suppose that happened?

I don't care where your kid or anyone else's kid gets their education from...but you seem to.

Do you take the $1000.00 per child credit for home school???? I find it interesting that such a credit exist...you b*itch that you should not pay for other kids education. Well, in most cases taking that credit would cover what most pay into property taxes if they have 2 children. You can get your money back...so your argument is null and void. So if you take that credit and have 3 or 4 kids someone else is paying for your kids education...even if you home school.

 

[subtlesixer03]

I have happened to notice something while reading this thread.

Why is it that public schools must be run by the Government? Why must they be controled by the government? Granted private schools do tend to cost alot of money. I went to public schools my entire life though high school. I was fortunate enough to have parents that challanged me to think for my self and stand for what I thought. They also taught me to be open minded to others points of view and to question myself. MOST curent public schools will crush you if you object or dont go along. Those of you with kids in public schools take the time to question your children about what school is like. And not fluffy questions. Do some digging. You WILL be shocked by what they dont teach anymore. Not only that but what the days are like. Your kids will hide and avoid alot but dig. Its worth the fight youll get from them. It is normal for your children to question you but not out right ignore you and disreguard you.

I was lucky as I had a few teachers that were Great teachers. Most how ever where not. Some where outright deplorible. How the hell do you let kids throw a file cabinet out a window into a court yard from the second floor and not see it or say anything? I took 2 years of german with that lady and never even learned to speak a sentance. Some how I managed to pass with all A's. It actuaslly really pissed me off because I wanted to learn German. Thats why I choose it.

In grade school they forced me to take spanish. I told them I would intentually fail it because I did not want to take it. Less then 6 months later I was back in Reading class reading books. I told my parents I was going to do it as well. I definitly caught flak for it. Alot of it, but they did respect the fact that I stood to my word and fought for what I wanted. Even the principal of the school gave me that respect. I didnt cause problems for others and I did learn a few things in spanish(actually more then I did in german if that tells you anything). I just simply refused to do the work. She was a good teacher though.

I also happened to be in a very good public school system for any area with very high paid teachers.

 

[88GT]

88GT and I had a lengthy conversation about home school, private school VS public school in another thread. The way I look at it if you want to home school your kid, that is great, it is your business. If you can afford the 10-15 grand a year for private school...that to is great.

I don't care how you educate your children. Or IF you do so. But you have no right to demand that someone else pays for it.

When I said all parents cannot home school she called me a liar,

I said not homeschooling was a CHOICE. The "I can't" is more often an "I won't" or "I don't want to." I also conceded the CHOICE not to enroll in government schools may come with more disadvantages than advantages.

when I said children with learning disabilities get services in public school they cannot get when home schooled

I said it wasn't true. because it's not. There isn't a service offered by government schools that can't be found in the free market.

I never called you a liar. I would have to think you we're deliberately disseminating false information. I do not.

and many people who home school and do private school also use public school services. Again she called me a liar and said those home school families are evil for using those services.

I said they were equally guilty of theft.

She told me I did not have a clue what I was talking about.

When it comes to home education, you don't. I also said your experience was insufficient to reach any conclusions or substantiate any statements about trends.

I have been sending kids to school for over 30 years...I know exactly what is going on in my grand kids school.

I'm betting you don't. No reflection on you, but it's ludicrous to think that you have knowledge of the intimate goings-on in every area of the school.

I brought up my daughter who is a single mom and works 12-14 hours a day sometimes has to travel and is trying to finish her degree...she said she could home school.

I said homeschooling was a choice. Your daughter COULD homeschool. I also said the opportunity costs of doing so might preclude the choice. I didn't say she should either.

I bought up my friend who also is a single mom who has 3 children with severe autism...if those kids did not go to school on the governments dime she could not work and would have to be on welfare.

You said parents of special needs kids could't take care of them without the government's help. Since I know a lot of homeschooling families who do just that, I pointed out the error in your statement. Your friend's personal circumstances never factored in to my statement.

Her answer was what would she had done 200 years ago...Most likely the children would have been put in an institution or died 200 years ago.

It was a rhetorical question with the purpose of pointing out the fallacy of your government-is-the-only-answer approach. I'm guessing she wouldn't be able to afford an institution either.

Her problem is she don't want to pay for public schools....I say move to where you don't have to.

Because you can't bring yourself to admit that there is truth in what I'm saying, you have to deflect with the unrelated. Do you tell people who oppose Obamacare to find a new place to live? Do you agree with forcing others to pay for someone else's responsibilities?

She says my experiences don't make me a credible person to have this discussion with her...

I said your personal circumstances were irrelevant to the points being made, that they did not constitute anything more an individual datum point. Your personal experience is relevant to the formation of your position, but it does not address the immorality of confiscatory taxes, inadequate results, indoctrination, usurpation of parental control, and so on and so forth. I had a great experience in my public school years. Graduated 14th in my class of 797 with a 4.11 GPA. And none of that matters one bit because my experiences are not evidence of a trend, one way or the other.

I never questioned your credibility. I have no reason to believe you can't be believed.

yet she thinks her's does...

I said nothing of the sort.

.I like paying to make sure all kids can get an education

.
Then pay for it yourself, out of your own funds, voluntarily, and without coercion. You have no right to force me to do the same.

I love public school...I moved to a place that I love the schools.

And that changes the immorality of forcing me to pay for it how?

And by the way...I have a 6th grader who tested out at grade 13 in reading..

Grade 13? Really? Is this the new way of saying "college level?" Or did the government schools figure out a way to get one more year of control?

.I would say the public school is doing a great job.

And I would say that they would be out of business if they couldn't take the "tuition" by force.

You cannot get a better deal than public school...

On the contrary. Government education, like all government institutions that operate sans competition, is the most bloated and inefficient use of tuition dollars. That it is the lowest ranking educational institution only makes it worse.

I do not like the feds involved in education I really think the department of education should go away and leave it up to the states.

On that, we can agree. However, I don't like the state having a say in my child's education either.


The bottom line is that government schools provide no unique service, require non-users to pay for others' responsibilities, and are the most expensive educational option with dismally inadequate results. Hey, it really is the educational version of Obamacare. Is it any wonder I'm opposed to it?

 

[88GT]

I don't care where your kid or anyone else's kid gets their education from...but you seem to.

No, if you want the government to educate your children, more power to you. I object to being forced to pay for it.

Do you take the $1000.00 per child credit for home school???? I find it interesting that such a credit exist...you b*itch that you should not pay for other kids education. Well, in most cases taking that credit would cover what most pay into property taxes if they have 2 children. You can get your money back...so your argument is null and void. So if you take that credit and have 3 or 4 kids someone else is paying for your kids education...even if you home school.

No, I don't. Nor do I believe it is a per child credit, but rather a one time deduction. It wouldn't come close to reimbursing the cost of a private school tuition.

 

[j706]

My wife home schooled our four kids until we felt each one needed the social interaction that schools give. Each one was ready at different ages. All but the oldest went on to graduate with 3.5 GPA's. The oldest (just like me) hated school and went into the military.

I do not have much faith in out public education system. My youngest is a senior now so my dealing's with the schools is almost over. I have been a constant thorn in our school districts side. It has always been a constant struggle to (IMO) keep them on track. They would hire liberal's for the directors/superintendents jobs in a strongly conservative community. They would attempt to pass on the liberal stuff and always had their priority's jacked up like sports over academics ect.

I was always a big PITA over the bogus book rental charge. As we all know Indiana's constitution states there will be no tuition for public education. So they change to name to book rental. Each year I would itemize all their books and refuse to pay for the ones they didn't get or use. We went to court on it three years straight before we got that nonsense squared away. We won every one of them. It cost me more money to fight it than to pay it but it was the idea.

They would spent money on stupid stuff like new bleachers when they already had perfectly fine bleachers. But would claim they didn't have any money A bunch of idiots IMO for the most part.