solidify my understanding/handling of headspace please

[craigkim]

So, I just started reloading bottlenecked cartridges. 458 and 223 to be exact AND I really JUST YESTERDAY started to understand how those cartridges head space and I am trying to determine what to do with that knowledge. I will trim cases too, which I know doesn't effect head space on these cases, but I am a little muddy on the best way to address the shoulder.

So far I have run my sizing die all of the way down to the shell plate for 223/5.56. My theory is that the brass is from multiple chambers, be it 5.56 or 223 Wylde like mine, or whatever the guy next to me who left his brass was shooting. None of my guns are bolt rfles, so I need the shoulder set back further for increased reliability in the AR..? I have a Dillon head space gauge and was using it on the resized brass... BUT, now I am reading that you can push the shoulder back too far and increase head space too much thereby reducing case life and accuracy. SO, how would I know that? The case head would seat beyond flush in the case gauge? What is the best way to "average" it all out? How should I handle this?

I would contrast that to my 458, which is only fired in one rifle, so I should be able to check the resizing back to the one rifle's chamber and be done with it? My thought was to run the sizing die down to the shell holder plate, then back it off a half turn, followed by advancing small increments until the brass seems to just fit, not loosely? Should I get a case gauge instead? How should I view/handle this?

Don't think me lazy to ask it on INGO... I spent hours trying to figure this out, now I want someone who knows more about it to check my logic.

Thanks

 

[trophyhunter]

Don't over think the issue, all you need is a cartridge gauge for every caliber you load and by dropping every single round you make through it as a final quality check you will catch and cull those rounds that would otherwise not headspace properly. Any round you make should chamber and fire in any firearm produced with commercial chamber reamers.

Performing the drop test in barrels to save a few dollars not purchasing a proper gauge does little to nothing to check for headspace, to much variation in chamber reamers to have peace of mind.

Out of every 1,000 rounds or so I get a few that won't drop completely due to a burr on the case head which wouldn't be a problem in most barrels and a quick once over with the file takes care of it. On rare occasions I find one more pronounced that would stop a pistol from going into battery or a rifle bolt closing and pull those down and toss them out.

 

[bstewrat3]

The only case gauges I use are made by the person who makes my barrels and they are made with the same reamer. It makes no sense to me to buy a gauge that is made to SAAMI specs if the chamber in the gun isn't exactly the same.

 

[trophyhunter]

The only case gauges I use are made by the person who makes my barrels and they are made with the same reamer. It makes no sense to me to buy a gauge that is made to SAAMI specs if the chamber in the gun isn't exactly the same.

It makes no sense to own *custom* case gauges at all, commercial gauges are reamed to nominal tolerances. I want every round in any given caliber I make to chamber in every caliber of that weapon I own. I want it to work in yours as well if the need arises.

For chasing the same hole in paper for a match grade weapon I could see it's value but that's it.

 

[craigkim]

Well, okay, I agree that I don't want a custom gauge for 223, as I want versatility. This is for multiple AR rifles, not bolt rifles Mine is a Dillon. So, you are just saying load 223 and use your head space gauge as a go/no go and it should be fine?

BUT, if I ordered a case gauge from Tromix in 458, which I believe to be cut with their reamer, that should work well for me...? The difference is that I am only loading for the one rifle...?

 

[AmmoManAaron]

I would contrast that to my 458, which is only fired in one rifle, so I should be able to check the resizing back to the one rifle's chamber and be done with it? My thought was to run the sizing die down to the shell holder plate, then back it off a half turn, followed by advancing small increments until the brass seems to just fit, not loosely? Should I get a case gauge instead? How should I view/handle this?

Thanks

Assuming that your .458 is a bolt gun or single shot and not a semi-auto, I think your approach is reasonable if max case life and top accuracy are your goals. Honestly, a lot of times I just say to heck with it and full length size with the die against the shell holder. I'm sure it shortens brass life to some degree (some calibers are more sensitive to this than others), but I know that my rounds will chamber and not cause me any problems. Avoiding the annoyance at the range and avoiding having to chamber each piece of brass is sometimes worth the trade off in case life. If it is expensive brass and you're not making/shooting a lot of them, the math changes.

 

[craigkim]

Assuming that your .458 is a bolt gun or single shot and not a semi-auto, I think your approach is reasonable if max case life and top accuracy are your goals. Honestly, a lot of times I just say to heck with it and full length size with the die against the shell holder. I'm sure it shortens brass life to some degree (some calibers are more sensitive to this than others), but I know that my rounds will chamber and not cause me any problems. Avoiding the annoyance at the range and avoiding having to chamber each piece of brass is sometimes worth the trade off in case life. If it is expensive brass and you're not making/shooting a lot of them, the math changes.

No Aaron, I guess I should have said that it IS an AR. The cases are pretty expensive, to me at least. I think they are about 85 cents each. I wanted to wring more accuracy out of it if possible AND maximize case life.

 

[trophyhunter]

Well, okay, I agree that I don't want a custom gauge for 223, as I want versatility. This is for multiple AR rifles, not bolt rifles Mine is a Dillon. So, you are just saying load 223 and use your head space gauge as a go/no go and it should be fine?

BUT, if I ordered a case gauge from Tromix in 458, which I believe to be cut with their reamer, that should work well for me...? The difference is that I am only loading for the one rifle...?

Tromix offers the Sheridan cut away .458 Socom gauge, really nice gauge for the money and one of the few that build cut away's I usually stick to Dillon for gauges but that's not a common round and the cutaway gauge will show you where the problem lies in sizing etc. if your having any trouble.

 

[Yeah]

Your best case gauge is your chamber, though the variety of bought ones suggest most people botch that opportunity.

If you aren't loading to your specific chamber you are leaving quite a lot of performance on the table.

 

[ryknoll3]

You can also buy a Hornady headspace gauge setup and bump the shoulder of the case back .002 for a bolt action and . 003 for a semi auto. This way you know you're sizing the case the minimum you need to for reliable operation.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Think of commercial ammunition in 5.56. Rounds made by the millions meant to be reliable in any of millions of rifles, and you don't worry about it. You can start really tweaking things down for various factors, MOA, brass life, whatever, but ask yourself, how much are you willing to spend for cheap ammunition, if that's what you're after? For those, I just want something that goes bang and puts a hole in that thing over there. I want to get more scientistic about the 7mmRM, put a hole in the left eye socket of that thing WAY over there.

I'm just easing into .458 myself, and man, she's high maintenance, almost like a .338 I got a few loaded rounds and a little box of brass, but I don't even have my dies yet. I think I've figured it out, you use the same bullets as for 45/70 etc, right?

 

[craigkim]

Think of commercial ammunition in 5.56. Rounds made by the millions meant to be reliable in any of millions of rifles, and you don't worry about it. You can start really tweaking things down for various factors, MOA, brass life, whatever, but ask yourself, how much are you willing to spend for cheap ammunition, if that's what you're after? For those, I just want something that goes bang and puts a hole in that thing over there. I want to get more scientistic about the 7mmRM, put a hole in the left eye socket of that thing WAY over there.

I'm just easing into .458 myself, and man, she's high maintenance, almost like a .338 I got a few loaded rounds and a little box of brass, but I don't even have my dies yet. I think I've figured it out, you use the same bullets as for 45/70 etc, right?

For 223, I came to the conclusion that I want it to be better than military, but it doesn't have to be custom grade. I will use new cases if I want a higher grade ammunition. So, that in mind, I am just running the damn resizing die on my surplus brass all the way to the shell plate.

458 is kicking my butt. First off, there is a LOT of information out there, BUT it's not printed. I don't love trying to figure out loads by relying almost entirely on information gained on the internet.

I am trying 3 different bullets. The Barnes 300 TTSX, the Nosler 300 BT, and the KAK 245 brass HP and I am using w296 for the barnes, reloader 7 for the Nosler, and lil gun for the KAK. As you may or may not know, Barnes has published data, but it isn't very good. The Lyman AR manual has data, but not for any of the bullets I want. Nosler has 300 BT data in their latest manual, but it didn't list w296, and I am using the lil gun for the KAK, because that is what the guy at KAK recommended. As per normal with Nosler, they list the minimum COAL, so i loaded one to their 2.100 OAL and it was VERY short, so I went with 2.150 OAL instead. Obviously that is going to skew my data from theirs slightly.

I am chamfering/deburring and then using the Lyman 45-60 neck resizing die. I am using the Redding seater die, but then I am finishing with the Lee FCD.

I haven't fired any of my reloads yet. I am relatively nervous about being able to get any accuracy out of them.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

That's kinda why I'm "easing" into it. I have enough live rounds to figure the rifle out and maybe use it a time or two, while the knowledge base matures a bit. Funny, a box of the loaded ones came in using the same Starline brass I got for loading. I do need to do some die shopping, glad I was reminded.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

That's kinda why I'm "easing" into it. I have enough live rounds to figure the rifle out and maybe use it a time or two, while the knowledge base matures a bit. Funny, a box of the loaded ones came in using the same Starline brass I got for loading. I do need to do some die shopping, glad I was reminded.

AFAIK, Starline is the only company making .458 SOCOM brass and so all of the small ammo manufacturers are buying the brass from them.

 

[craigkim]

That's kinda why I'm "easing" into it. I have enough live rounds to figure the rifle out and maybe use it a time or two, while the knowledge base matures a bit. Funny, a box of the loaded ones came in using the same Starline brass I got for loading. I do need to do some die shopping, glad I was reminded.

Lemme see how po'd I am after I give it a few tries here. After that you may find an entire 458 reloading setup in the classifieds!

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

AFAIK, Starline is the only company making .458 SOCOM brass and so all of the small ammo manufacturers are buying the brass from them.

Ahh, that makes sense then

Lemme see how po'd I am after I give it a few tries here. After that you may find an entire 458 reloading setup in the classifieds!

Patience, grasshopper.

 

[craigkim]

Argh, so I had my Lee 458 S FCD installed and then realized it wasn't doing a damn thing despite being turned all the way down. I went back on the press and backed out the seating stem on my Redding seater die with intent to use the crimping portion of that die instead. I ran it downon the brass and cycled my rounds through only to realize that I was crimping very slightly, which is what I wanted, but ALSO SEATING! Decided I will take the seat stem out in the future. It should be okay, but my new COAL is 2.130 instead of the 2.150 I wanted. Nosler listed 2.100 as their COAL but that seemed ridiculously short.

I probably wouldn't worry about crimping the Barnes or the KAK projectiles, but Nosler states that they used a firm crimp in the manual. It makes more sense on those projectiles because of their smooth jacket which lacks crimp grooves. I wasn't going to go "firm" on it, but just enough to kiss the case mouth a little. About a half turn of the crimp die.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Argh, so I had my Lee 458 S FCD installed and then realized it wasn't doing a damn thing despite being turned all the way down.

It sounds like something is FUBAR'ed. Either you brass is trimmed too short or ?
I don't own a Lee .458 SOCOM FCD, so I can't check, but you might try removing the lock ring from the die, that should let you screw it farther into the press and may get it crimping for you...not ideal, but worth a shot.

 

[craigkim]

Well, sometimes all it takes is someone to say, "that's FUBAR'ed" to get you to go back and look at things again. The Lee 458 S FCD does not work like the ones on their site and it didn't come with instructions. It has a collet that sticks out of the bottom of the case. It doesn't have a stem to adjust it. Instead, it relies on the shell plate compressing the bottom of the crimping collet and pushing it up into the die to activate it. SO, when I adjust it all the way to the shell plate... you get nothing. It has to hit the shell plate and be pushed up into the die. Still playing with adjusting it, but it seems like you can get a very slight or a very tight crimp depending. I don't really like the additional feeling of resistance on the press when you raise the shell plate all the way up. It WAS cheap though.