Mumbai and self-defense

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • 4sarge

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Mar 19, 2008
    5,897
    99
    FREEDONIA
    more on the Militarization of terrorists

    Militarization of terrorists



    I originally wanted to title this post on last week's terror attacks as "Putting the bomb in Bombay," but the attacks involved shootings, not bombs. Plus, they're not calling it Bombay anymore, but "Mumbai." What's up with that? What's with all this name changing, often times to something stupid? Constantinople to Istanbul. Adrianople to Edirne. Burma to Myanmar. Rangoon to Yangon. Congo to Zaire back to Congo again. Chad Johnson to Chad Ocho Cinco (once he sells all those pre-printed jerseys). Anaheim Mighty Ducks to just plain Ducks.

    (Of course, you occasionally though rarely get a good name change, like "Central African Empire" to "Central African Republic," the oxymoron of the former being too obvious to ignore.)

    But my larger point is, IT'S BOMBAY, DAMMIT!!!

    Anyhoo, Mark Steyn draws the general lessons to be learned:
    What’s relevant about the Mumbai model is that it would work in just about any second-tier city in any democratic state: Seize multiple soft targets and overwhelm the municipal infrastructure to the point where any emergency plan will simply be swamped by the sheer scale of events. Try it in, say, Mayor Nagin’s New Orleans. All you need is the manpower. Given the numbers of gunmen, clearly there was a significant local component. On the other hand, whether or not Pakistan’s deeply sinister ISI had their fingerprints all over it, it would seem unlikely that there was no external involvement. After all, if you look at every jihad front from the London Tube bombings to the Iraqi insurgency, you’ll find local lads and wily outsiders: That’s pretty much a given.

    But we’re in danger of missing the forest for the trees. The forest is the ideology. It’s the ideology that determines whether you can find enough young hotshot guys in the neighborhood willing to strap on a suicide belt or (rather more promising as a long-term career) at least grab an AK and shoot up a hotel lobby. Or, if active terrorists are a bit thin on the ground, whether you can count at least on some degree of broader support on the ground. You’re sitting in some distant foreign capital but you’re minded to pull off a Bombay-style operation in, say, Amsterdam or Manchester or Toronto. Where would you start? Easy. You know the radical mosques, and the other ideological-front organizations. You’ve already made landfall.

    It’s missing the point to get into debates about whether this is the “Deccan Mujahideen” or the ISI or al-Qaeda or Lashkar-e-Taiba. That’s a reductive argument. It could be all or none of them. The ideology has been so successfully seeded around the world that nobody needs a memo from corporate HQ to act: There are so many of these subgroups and individuals that they intersect across the planet in a million different ways. It’s not the Cold War, with a small network of deep sleepers being directly controlled by Moscow. There are no membership cards, only an ideology. That’s what has radicalized hitherto moderate Muslim communities from Indonesia to the Central Asian stans to Yorkshire, and coopted what started out as more or less conventional nationalist struggles in the Caucasus and the Balkans into mere tentacles of the global jihad.
    When I heard about the attacks, my first thought was not al-Qaida, but the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence agency, the same people who created the Taliban, undercut our operations in Afghanistan and made Pervez Musharraf's life a living hell. The Bombay attacks just seemed more like a planned military operation.

    Belmont Club has some additional thoughts:
    The reality, according to an article in India’s Institute for Defence Studies & Analysis journal is that the relationship between terror groups and the Pakistani government is no longer simple. Although the Pakistani government may have initially fostered them, these terror groups, like Frankenstein’s monster, have acquired a life of their own, driven by the crime, unemployment and social conditions of the region.
    The supporting structures for the proxy war in J[ammu] & K[ashmir] … have developed their own dynamics… Since the end of the Cold War, these structures have embedded themselves deeply in the political economy of the region. The Pakistani state does not control them but merely exercises influence over them and is able to exploit them to serve its own strategic designs. … Thus, there may be a grain of truth in Gen Musharraf’s statement that the Pakistan Army is unable to stop militants from crossing the LOC. The Pakistani ruling elites are not in complete control of the supporting structures for terrorism … because of the above factors, jehad and terrorism in … are likely to continue even if the Pakistani ruling elites give assurances about the withdrawal of their support.
    In other words the terror gangs have become a force unto themselves. With their money and ruthlessness, terror groups are now an established social institution. The Terror Wonk says “the extensive illicit arms trade within Pakistan which ensures that there is an endless supply of weapons, the uncontrollable sources of funding – particularly narcotics trafficking and donations both from within Pakistan and from around the world, and the tens of thousands of radical madrassas that indoctrinate Pakistani youth into radical Islam from Pakistan’s bottomless well of unemployed” have made groups like LeT much more permanent than a mere government in Islamabad. The terror groups are now as much able to manipulate the Pakistani military as vice versa. They have become so intertwined that determining where one begins and ends can be difficult.

    Bill Roggio notes that both the Pakistani armed forces and a gigantic criminal/jihadi gang have been implicated in the latest attack on India. The sole surviving gunman in the Mumbai attack, Ajmal Amir Kasab has fingered the Pakistani Navy and the Dawood Ibrahim criminal network for providing assistance and training for the Mumbai assault team, according to India Today, quoting police sources.

    Dawood Ibrahim turns out to be one of those supremely powerful people who very few in the West have heard of. He also typifies the interchangeable nature of crime, government and the Jihad among the Muslim communities of South Asia. According to Wikipedia, Dawood Ibrahim “was No. 4 on the Forbes’ world’s Top 10 most dreaded criminals list of 2008″ and is widely believed to have been the man behind the Mumbai terror bombings of 1993. He is wanted by the United States and the United Nations and reportedly lives, unsurprisingly enough, in Karachi.

    To put Ibrahim’s notoriety in perspective, the Forbes Number One criminal is Osama Bin Laden, also believed to be domiciled in those parts.
    David Altman finds the attacks part of a larger and ominous pattern:
    The world views terror incidents as sporadic, high-profile, and one-time events. They arouse fury, anger, and pain, yet they do not undermine the power of the state where terrorism takes place. Years ago, when Palestinian terrorists were blowing up airplanes, a terror leader was asked about the benefit achieved by his men while perpetrating horrifying incidents where hundreds of innocents are murdered. His response was as follows: “I get full attention – in the two minutes where the entire world’s attention is directed at me, I can express my message regarding the injustice done to me, and this is enough for me.”

    Ever since that time, terrorism underwent a series of changes. The Vietnam War changed the conception of terror organizations and made them think that a terrorist army was not only meant to sting, but ultimately it also had the power to win. In a meeting held at the end of the war between representatives of the Palestine Liberation Organization and North Vietnamese General Giap, the PLO men congratulated him on his great victory and asked when he thought terror groups would be able to defeat Israel. He responded with one word: Never. When he was asked why, he replied: because of lack of determination.

    Some observers believe this was one of the turning points for Islamic terror groups, as it prompted them to build an educational system that lauded suicide, thereby laying the groundwork for suicide terrorism. Their immediate interpretation was that determination meant willingness to offer personal sacrifice, and that the more people prove their willingness to die, the greater their determination would become, ultimately resulting in victory. Eventually, terror leaders realized that suicide bombers have a demoralizing effect and can create grave damage and prompt a government shakeup - for example, the attack on the Madrid subway system in 2004 that prompted a change of government in Spain.

    However, terrorism upgraded itself into combat units. The Hizbullah terror organization does not premise its power on sporadic terror incidents. By now it has accumulated 42,000 rockets aimed at undertaking military terrorism and causing mass casualties, while challenging Israel militarily.

    For a while now, Hamas has dealt not only with suicide terrorists, but rather, it is building an offensive arsenal of continuously upgraded rockets, while also forming military units whose modus operandi is wholly different than that of terror cells, and training a terror army that is also involved in military activity.

    This conception has also been applied by the Iranian army that alongside combat units maintains the Revolutionary Guards, which in turn nurture paramilitary organizations combining terror and anti-terror activity with military activity. This is combined with a public relations war, which is the secret weapon of fundamentalist organizations and where they are more powerful than all Western states.

    Al-Qaeda too has shifted from sporadic terror to military terror, and its operations are more complex and integrate more elements. They reflect the face of future warfare, which combines local terror with wide-scale terror that potentially includes biological and chemical weapons, and aspires to achieve nuclear terror using combat units operating differently than terror groups that attempt to undertake a local one-time attack.

    India constitutes a broad testing ground for terror forces aiming to take over a large city while using military terrorism. The country constitutes a tool for learning terror’s new conceptions as they manifest themselves at this time, in the face of the conclusions of the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, and terror attacks in Pakistan.

    Therefore, the war on terror’s doctrine must change. The old-time suicide bombers mostly operated alone or in small groups, in order to prove their power and hurt the enemy as much as is possible. Yet their time has passed.

    Today, we see the emergence of a dark, new, and different army, with new branches that include all the components of a military, yet still utilize the terror doctrine. The advantage of terrorist armies is first and foremost the fact they are not subjected to any law or international convention. They do not face any pressure and they are not accountable to anyone.

    They tie the hands of the responding force, which is the only side subjected to conventions pertaining to human rights, war captives, and the targeting of civilians.
    We will have to adjust our countermeasures accordingly. Refusing to shoot at the terrorists is not going to cut it.
     

    4sarge

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Mar 19, 2008
    5,897
    99
    FREEDONIA
    PS: Here is the Face of a Terrorist

    terrorist.jpg

    Poster Boy for an Obamatron or Obama's Personal Well Armed National Security Force :xmad:
     

    quiggly

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 10, 2008
    258
    16
    Noblesville
    I was listening to a radio show tonight that said the Mumbai police force, ONLY had access to Enfield rifles. They are all issued one rifle and 30 rounds of ammo. They cannot fire that ammo for practice. Any ammo they fire has to be accounted for bullet by bullet.

    He was also saying that they have only Riot Armor. Plastic Helmets and vests that don't stop bullets.

    Seems the corruption in the government had taken the money for weapons and used it elsewhere.

    The police in this area do not carry firearms as a general precaution.

    With little or no training, a police officer was no match for a terrorist with an AK 47 and hand grenades. No wonder they were cowering behind cover.

    This is just what the talk show host was saying.
     

    quiggly

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 10, 2008
    258
    16
    Noblesville
    In a side note, I was listening to Garrison talk about this incident and he was making the comparisions of how this could not have happened nearly as easily in this country.
    Reasons were....

    Better intelligence.
    Better trained police force.
    Armed citizens.

    He is a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment.
     

    esrice

    Certified Regular Guy
    Rating - 100%
    20   0   0
    Jan 16, 2008
    24,095
    48
    Indy
    Here is Gabe Suarez weighing in from his last newsletter:

    [FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]ON MUMBAI - WHAT WE KNOW SO FAR[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]
    mumbaitango.jpg

    In 2001 the USA had the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center. It has become vogue to call it the 9/11 Tragedy, as if it was a hurricane or an earthquake, but it was not. It was an act done by men, evil men. A few years later, both Spain and England faced similar events. And now India. I am not so schooled in geo-politics to try to draw strategic significance here. All I can do is to draw operational similarities in the hope of understanding my enemy better and thus be able to defeat him. Similarly, to be able to teach my students to defeat him.

    Here is what we know thus far -

    1). The attackers were organized into buddy pairs, allowing one to shoot while the other moved, and so forth. The buddy pair, or "Two Man Team" is a development of small unit tactics very prevalent in SWAT operations. For urban close quarters battle, where areas tend to be compartmentalized, it makes sense for each room to be "taken" by two men. It is not hard to develop the skills of a two man team. For example, we teach a team tactics course and after two days of instruction, attendees are quite well skilled in working through any problem as a well oiled team. It is obvious that these terrorists had a good amount of exposure to this material.

    2). While we don't know everything yet, it appears the two man teams operated autonomously in Mumbai. That means that while they had an overall objective, how they achieved that was up to the individual team itself. Now we see the autonomous two-man team, well drilled, practiced, each with its own set of objectives, and apparently in contact with one another. If you think about it, this was a bigger, better planned Columbine with multiple and much better prepared shooters.

    3). Until the "elite operators" showed up later, it doesn't appear that the "armed police" did much to stop them at all. I have never been to India, but if the training and pay of their local police is anything like what I have seen in the many Third World nations I have visited, I don't expect the terrorists would have met much resistance from anyone in authority. After all - if they give you an old Enfield with no ammo and $150 per month to live on, do you really want to jump into the lion's mouth?

    4). India is a very restrictive place as far as civilian ownership of weapons, and the likelihood of anyone present being armed was slim. Regardless, I think this is once
    again indicative of how an armed civilian may have been able to stop at least one of the two man elements. Those who wish to argue the point will be referred to the British reporter who commented that if he'd had a gun he would have killed both of the terrorists he saw (because no one else was even trying to do so!)
    5). There is evidence that many of the victims were tortured and executed. I will let that one soak in good.

    6). Here in CONUS, or anywhere else in the world, if you rely on the authorities for your protection and safety you are a fool. They cannot protect you. True, that sometimes you cannot protect yourself either, but the point is that to surrender your right (or tools) to self-defense because someone else is telling you they will protect you is stupid. We keep seeing the results of that mentality. Only you can protect you.

    7). There is evidence that the terrorists were "strong and well toned", and that they were using steroids and other drugs to fight better. Now we aren't going to suggest that doping up is a good thing for those who would fight against those guys, but it does show that your adversary will not be the push-over some think he will be. Look at the photo above. You see a fit young man with what looks like a Romanian AK. He has two magazines taped together just like the Russian Spetznas do, and his trigger finger is off the trigger. These guys were serious, dedicated, and did their homework.

    I am certain we will be hearing more and more about the Mumbai event in the coming months. We have been discussing this at length in the Fighting Terrorism Section of warrior talk. As more info becomes available, we will pass it on to you.

    Gabe Suarez

    Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to
    send peace on earth: I came not to send peace,
    but a sword.



    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
     
    Top Bottom