Is it legal to carry loaded shotgun in car?

[IndyBeerman]

Yes you can. A pistol grip on a shotgun does not make it a pistol. It needs to retain it's 18"+ barrel so as not to violate NFA law and Indiana's ban on short barrel shotguns.

(snip)

Now, for my , get a sidefolder stock before going pistol grip only. If you are in the 1 in a 1000 situation that requires breaking out a trunk gun rather than driving away, that is a situation where you really are going to want to have a stock. Seriously.

HeHe...HeHeHe,(best Bevis & Butthead voice)
You mean a side folder like this with a pistol grip?

Sidefolder greatly recommended, if memory serves me correct, someone here on the board had to have some dental work done because of a pistol grip only shotgun.

 

[curraheeguns]

That involves TRUSTS not a legally owned SBS. Once BATF signs a NFA paper it carries its weight until BATF decides to yank that item. You are not subject to penalties because of a mistake on their behalf. I am sure they can make it hell on you though.

The owner can believe anything they want, but fact is it is a jailable offense in Indiana. Regardless what you think ATF has allowed, the owner will go to jail for possession of a SBS.

I have seen it, done it, several times.

 

[RH822-A]

Adding a question here: That 26 inch rule is for the weapon in it's longest possible configuration, right? Like if you had a side or top folding stock, could it be under 26 inches folded as long as it's over that with it extended?

NO, the 26 inch rule applies to the firearm in it's SHORTEST possible configuration. The absolute shortest it can be is 26 inches and the barrell MUST be at least 18 inches long.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I have always been under the impression that with a LTCH you could pack a 18.5 pistol grip mossy as a truck gun. But another member thinks it's against the law. I figured I'd ask INGO before bothering the police department.

If your question is "may I carry a long gun in my vehicle", then the answer is yes. Indiana has no statute as to the carrying of shoulder weapons. The LTCH involves the necessity of a carry license for handguns.

The pistol grip shotgun, despite being a very silly weapon (unless you are a hot chick in a movie, Milla why won't you return my calls?), as long as it is in a Title I config may be carried legally if you have a LTCH (note if you are hunting the DNR hunting regs may control).

 

[kludge]

The answer is yes, you can have a loaded long gun in your vehicle.

However, You will need a LTCH to carry the Mossberg with a pistol grip in your vehicle - loaded or not. Now I'm off to look for the case law.

I know all about the "designed to be fired with one hand" thing but the case law exists nonetheless.

ETA: stupid criminals set precedent for the rest of us.

 

[kludge]

Here you go:

link --> Converted WP file rhs

snippets:

Johnny Estep appeals his convictions for attempted theft and carrying a handgun without a license, Class A misdemeanors. Estep raises two issues on appeal, which we restate as:
I. Whether the evidence is sufficient to support Estep's conviction for attempted theft.

II. Whether the evidence is sufficient to support Estep's conviction for carrying a handgun without a license.

We affirm.

The facts most favorable to Estep's convictions reveal that at approximately 2:00 a.m. on March 15, 1998, a Marion County deputy sheriff was dispatched to a car lot, where he observed Estep standing between two parked cars. The deputy asked Estep what he was doing, and Estep responded that he was getting lug nuts for his cousin's car. The deputy observed that one of the cars was jacked up and a tire iron was hooked to one of the car's lug nuts. In the other car, the deputy observed two passengers, as well as a pistol-gripped shotgun lying in the front passenger seat. Estep admitted that the gun was his. Estep did not have permission to remove lug nuts from any car parked on the lot.

Estep contends that the evidence is insufficient to support his conviction for carrying a handgun without a license. Estep admits that the firearm at issue was his, and that he did not have a license to carry it. However, Estep argues that a pistol-gripped shotgun is not a handgun. A handgun is defined in Ind. Code § 35-47-1-6 (1998) as any firearm:
(1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or
(2) any firearm with:
(A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or
(B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.

The State did not present evidence on the length of the firearm. However, a firearm is considered a handgun under the statute regardless of length if such firearm is designed or adapted to be fired from one hand. Estep argues that the gun he possessed is not designed or adapted to be fired from one hand. We disagree. Although a shotgun with a normal stock is meant to be fired from the shoulder and is not a handgun, the absence of a stock and the addition of the pistol grip is an adaptation of the gun that allows it to be fired from one hand. See Ind. Code § 35-47-1-11 (1998)(“shotgun” defined as a weapon intended to be fired from the shoulder). Accordingly, a license is required to carry a pistol-gripped shotgun. The evidence is sufficient to support Estep's conviction.

Affirmed.

 

[curraheeguns]

Here you go:

link --> Converted WP file rhs

snippets:

So far this is turning out to be the current case law. Not done with the westlaw search but I think it is good.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

However, You will need a LTCH to carry the Mossberg with a pistol grip in your vehicle

Right, because the pistol grip shotgun, in addition to being silly and inane (unless Milla has it, and she still has yet to call me), is not a shotgun.

When is a shotgun, not a shotgun? When the Court of Appeals says it's not.

Look at how shotgun is defined:

IC 35-47-1-11
"Shotgun"
Sec. 11. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Your pistol gripped shotgun, while very silly and inane, is not designed to be fired from the shoulder, thus using the alchemy of the Court of Appeals, your shotgun is converted into a handgun, just like lead is made into gold.

And now several photos of Milla Jovovich (for no apparent reason):

http://www.unificationfrance.com/IMG/jpg/Resident_Evil_Milla_Jovovich_1.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e371/SSECEO/Milla_Jovovich-Glamour04.jpg

MillaJ.com :: The Official Milla Jovovich Website

(Oddly, these were all under my Favorites).

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Curra, do not believe Estep has been overruled or modified and I just ran a cursory check and saw nothing.

 

[beebadd]

I ask a police officer about this a week ago and he replied it was legal to keep it loaded as long as shotgun was legal to have.and no a permit is not required....

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I ask a police officer about this a week ago and he replied it was legal to keep it loaded as long as shotgun was legal to have.and no a permit is not required....

. . . if the shotgun has a stock (designed to be fired from the shoulder).

 

[Paco Bedejo]

The law differentiates between "as taxed" and "as modified" in most cases.

AFAIK, you cannot put a pistol grip onto a shotgun in Indiana. If you purchase a pistol-grip shotgun which was manufactured & taxed as an AOW, then you're fine to possess it in Indiana. If you then decide to put a stock onto that shotgun (even on your bench just to see), technically you've converted it from an AOW to a Shotgun and it may no longer have a pistol-grip installed upon it. I think that if you're a licensed firearms manufacturer, you can re-install the pistol-grip & pay for another tax stamp, but average Joe cannot.

If you, being a citizen of Indiana, may legally possess a particular firearm, outside your home or place of business, in Indiana, you may carry it loaded in your car. I'm not sure how it is for non-citizens.

No citizen may have a short barreled shotgun in Indiana. There may be a loophole via AOW, but I don't think so.

This is the information I've personally gathered from this website in the past several months. You might have noticed the distinct lack of citation. I don't have time to scour the site & link to the threads where I read this information. Please refer to the actual legalese, IANAL.

If any of you old-timers could give a more succinct post, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[curraheeguns]

Curra, do not believe Estep has been overruled or modified and I just ran a cursory check and saw nothing.

The head MCPO firearms DPA is researching it right now, but when I talked to him last (about 10am) neither of us could find where it had been overturned.

Not only that, I think I have started a legal update that will soon be distributed to the county LEO's regading it.

I will let you know when they get back to me.

And I take this opportunity to stress that LEO's are people too and only know what they are taught in continued training and everyday expierence. We are not walking code books that know it all. In this instance I have had improper knowledge/training for several years.

Learn something every day!!

 

[kyle1058]

hmm case law in indiana about a shotgun with a pistol grip being a pistol?

So if I were put a pistol grip only on a shotgun with an 18.5" barrel, am I converting it to a pistol illegally? Since it is registered as a shotgun? Not sure how non-NFA conversions go, or if it is legal in indiana to convert a shotgun to a "pistol", thats not AOW/SBS by federal laws?

 

[kludge]

No citizen may have a short barreled shotgun in Indiana. There may be a loophole via AOW, but I don't think so.

This is the information I've personally gathered from this website in the past several months. You might have noticed the distinct lack of citation. I don't have time to scour the site & link to the threads where I read this information. Please refer to the actual legalese, IANAL.

If any of you old-timers could give a more succinct post, it would be greatly appreciated.

Someone will be along to correct me shortly, but the way it was explained to me is this:

If it started life as a shotgun WITH a shoulder stock then your barrel(s) must be at least 18.5". If you shorten the barrel(s) to less than 18.5" you now have a SBS or "sawed-off shotgun" and that is illegal for everyone in Indiana (no exception that that I know of).

AFAIK you CAN replace a shoulder stock with a pistol grip as long as the barell length and overeall length are still legal (like the Mossberg with a pistol grip). PLEASE DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR THIS!

You CAN NOT take a shotgun (that was born with a shoulder stock) replace the pistol grip and shorten the barrel(s) to <18.5".

You can buy, as an AOW with tax/paperwork, a pistol grip "shotgun" with barrel(s) <18.5". (Remember it's not a "shotgun" if it never had a shoulder stock.)

Now here's where I'm not sure...

You can take a "shotgun" that's not a shotgun (a firearm chambered for shotgun shells that started life with a pistol grip), get AOW papers, tax, etc. and shorten the barrel, and still be legal.

PLEASE, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

So if I were put a pistol grip only on a shotgun with an 18.5" barrel, am I converting it to a pistol illegally?

kyle, remember the operation of federal and state law (some gun owners beleive they are the same). Each have their own definitions. The answer to your question is . . . it depends on what you do.

Making your state-defined shotgun into a state-defined pistol will leave it as a federally-defined shotgun, depending on what you do with it. However, your pistol-gripped shotgun while a state-defined pistol will still be silly and inane (unless you are Milla Jovovich). Are you dizzy yet?

Again, a photo of Milla Jovovich: http://www.softpedia.com/screenshots/Milla-Jovovich_1.png

The head MCPO firearms DPA

Marion County has a "firearms DPA"? Wow, forget how big that office is.

So, they probably have a Minor in a Tavern DPA too?

 

[curraheeguns]

Now here's where I'm not sure...

You can take a "shotgun" that's not a shotgun (a firearm chambered for shotgun shells that started life with a pistol grip), get AOW papers, tax, etc. and shorten the barrel, and still be legal.

PLEASE, correct me if I'm wrong.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class_iii_nfa/34434-building_an_aow.htmlhttps://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class_iii_nfa/34434-building_an_aow.html

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I believe most of the answers to questions raised here can be answered with this . . . a video of Milla Jovovich:

YouTube - Milla Jovovich

 

[kyle1058]

Damn you guys.. I have to rent that movie now... she was hot when she was 18 and shes still hot...

I was asking if it was legal or not to "convert" it, per state laws. I know federal laws on SBS/AOW very well and I have a 30"-ish long rem 870 with a pistol grip only that i safely fire with BOTH hands and granted I agree its not nearly as accurate or as comfortable as a full stock, i do posess a full length stock for it and I use that for hunting, but it has a place as a home defense weapon and I am 100% comfortable with being able to maneuver around my extremely tight hallways in my home and safely aim and shoot it If i have to.

It's not the best tactical solution and i will be getting a real folding stock someday and ditch the cheapo pistol grip, but its solid and I keep it loaded with 00 buck. If someone broke in I would be able to clear a damn hallway with 00 buck, even with elevated blood pressure, with the smooth barrel and NO choke (smooth bore slug barrel).

As far as the OP is concerned, I guess someone answered his question with carrying it,,, its federally legal with an 18.5+" barrel and a pistol grip as long as its 26"+ overall, but without a carry permit its illegal to carry it outside the home or business of the person owning it without an indiana LTCH. If you had an LTCH and I were you, and wanted to carry a shotgun in my vehicle, I would keep a folding stock or a full length solid stock, because if you had a situation where the pistol could not do it and the SHTF scenario happened, I would definitely want a full length stock for accuracy, recoil (especially for a follow up shot), and the comfort of a full length shotgun anyways if I had to get my ass out of the car and get to the trunk ASAP. Just my 2 cents...

 

[curraheeguns]

This just in.....

According to the MCPO as of today this is their opinion and the case law they will follow:

Although a shotgun with a normal stock is meant to be fired from the shoulder and is not a handgun, the absence of a stock and the addition of the pistol grip is an adaptation of the gun that allows it to be fired from one hand. See Ind. Code § 35-47-1-11 (1998) (“shotgun” defined as a weapon intended to be fired from the shoulder). Accordingly, a license is required to carry a pistol-gripped shotgun. Estep v. Indiana, 716 N.E.2d 986, 988 (Ind. Ct. App. 1999).

At least now we know in Marion County no gray area exists.