Firearms Industry Venture Capitalism

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  • Magnum

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Jun 27, 2011
    271
    18
    North Indy
    I wonder why, with things in the state that they are, that no one is setting up shop on a mass scale and cranking out things like magazines, ammunition, or receivers and barrels for high demand weapons.

    Let me just share my thought on this. I know firsthand that you can work with machine builders to get what you want by the end of the week if you're willing to pay for it. If you want a press that will stamp out AR-15 aluminum mags all day long, you really aren't "dreaming" to think you could produce tens of thousands a month. Let's just keep going with the AR-15 magazine here. So then you need a follower, and that's easy enough, just buy a plastic injection molding machine which would be incredibly easy. The spring is the one thing that I wouldn't know anything about, but again, its a long piece of spring steel, nothing too special there. Weld it together and bam, not so difficult. Take your production volume/capacity figures to the big three who are bare on stock (Brownell's, Cheaper than Dirt, and Midway) and you have your buyer. Here are the hurdles I see, but even so, I think it is incredibly doable and very low risk for an investor:

    1) ATF licensing. This is the big thing I could see being a hurdle, for things like ammunition magazines do you need some sort of license to produce a firearm part?

    2) Overhead of facility/human resources. It wouldn't take a huge facility to accommodate the machinery and warehousing space for an operation. There would be a diminishing marginal cost to run multiple machines to increase output, as well. Industrial production space is abundant and cheap right now. I'm picturing a very low cost for a one year (or so) lease to get started. With lots of unemployed welders, maintenance techs, machine operators, and QC inspectors, you'd have no problem finding qualified production personnel willing to work for a reasonable wage.

    3) Sourcing of materials. In some cases is the entire industry bottlenecked right now on something like "There is only 1/2/3 companies that produce all gunpowder" or things like that? Magazines are what get me because they don't involve a relatively scarce material like gunpowder. You're talking literally about steel, aluminum, and plastic. No more abundantly are any materials used in consumer goods than those three commodities.

    4) Market projections with respect to legislation and supply/demand. I could see an investor being skeptical that legislation could render their operation obsolete, or an investor being concerned that the current demand levels are only a temporary bubble. However, to the first point I would say this. The legislation (on the federal level) would take nearly a year to take effect, and the provision of the bill very well could be that there is a one year period before it takes effect, meaning at a minimum you could get out six months of manufacturing and possibly even two years if a ban were to pass. If a magazine ban did pass, business would in fact get EVEN BETTER for you. There would be a HUGE demand for the "capacity limit" size magazine, whatever it was. So, you simply retool and start stamping out (or molding) 5, 10 , 15, or 20 round bodies. Use the same follower and floor plate, a different spring, and now you're ready to supply a massive market that legislation produced overnight. To the second point on long term market demand, I would say that even if nothing happens legislatively the demand will be drastically elevated for at least the duration of Obama's administration, and almost assuredly beyond it. We can almost count on gun control being a much larger debate issue for candidates in 2016, and there will again be the election panic within a few years. All of the new AR-15 owners this recent panic has produced has inherently created an expanded market for magazines.

    5) Finding distributors. With the big three sites being sold out, I think they would all be eager to buy if you could demonstrate a product of even moderate quality. If for some reason they were not interested, the gun community online is viral. Post a link to your website (cheap and easy to create) on all of the major national and regional forums, then you sit back and wait as the orders roll in from all four corners of the internet. "In stock Mil-Spec AR-15 Magazines, ships same day, $20/ea, free shipping on orders over $100." The only two words that matter in this market right now are "in stock."

    There, that's my pitch. Say you're a venture capitalist in a bad economy. What is one thing you literally cannot go wrong selling right now, and that you could almost immediately start producing? Magazines. I could run the same argument for ammunition and receivers, but in particular I find it shocking that three months into a big panic, where magazines are selling for $50/ea+, that no one has stepped up to the plate. If someone had given me nearly unlimited funds and placed me in charge of coordinating it, I could literally have a warehouse full of gov-spec quality mags ready to ship right now. I have worked with engineers, contractors, vendors, machine shops, quality assurance, and materials analysts and it takes work, yes, but you can make anything happen with sufficient financial backing and hard work.
     
    Last edited:

    BogWalker

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    Jan 5, 2013
    6,305
    63
    Heck, I'd throw some money at it. Biggest thing I see in the way is government regulations and insurance costs. Do magazine manufacturers have to have the massive insurance policies like ammo and firearms makers do?
     

    Classic

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   1   0
    Aug 28, 2011
    3,420
    38
    Madison County
    Funding is the big hurdle. Once you do a real business plan and see the magnatude of the investment vs. the expected revenue minus the labor, rent and tax expenses you will see the light.
     

    Magnum

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Jun 27, 2011
    271
    18
    North Indy
    TAXES! That's what I forgot. Never mind, scratch the whole thing. Ted Cruz is right :P Seriously though, companies are surviving on less in-demand products with lower margins, this is actually a pretty sizable market. I mean... Magpul is backordered a million magazines+.
     

    fro65

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Dec 31, 2012
    80
    6
    South of Ft. Wayne
    I think any speculative investor probably wouldn't take the chance right now. My luck would be, as soon as the money was spent on tooling, some kind of ban would appear from behind closed doors of the current "transparent" administration.
     

    LarryC

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jun 18, 2012
    2,418
    63
    Frankfort
    As a retired Engineer that is very familiar with high speed production of metal and plastic item in large quantities it would not be hard to set up to do this.

    BUT, I think you have several issues. 1) Patent rights - I'm sure Magpul and others have most of the patent rights for the current design plastic magazine. 2) There is quite an investment required to produce plastic parts in quantity. Magpul is probably at least running 16 cavity molds on probably 100 ton screw injection mold machines for each side. Then a similar system for the follower.

    These machines and molds are quite expensive and you require Plastic grinders, driers, vacuum feed systems just to start.

    Then you have to set up an inspection department to inspect the parts being molded. You must have a tool room set up to maintain the molds. A maintainance person/crew is also required to maintain the machines. You still have to assemble the mags. Then inspect and package the mags - with a shipping dept and sales to handle distribution. To set this up after design and Lawyer approval of patents or contract to pay an existing patent owner a share, would still require a manufacturing site - (no you can't run these machines in your garage).

    The completion of this with a full staff of maintenance and toolmakers and Engineers and operators, inspectors that are trained in this Industry would take at least a year to year and a half to produce prototypes for approval. By that time Magpul and the other manufacturers will most likely have the market saturated again. Then the mags will b $10 /ea (again).

    The biggest problem with this idea (sorry to be a spoilsport) is that I have seen molded Ar and AK mags made by at least 3 different manufacturers. I am very sure that all of them have investiged the potential for the magazine market and will expand their capacity if the market analysis indicates a reasonable payback and profit.

    Remember they already have the mold design, Patents, inspection, maintainance and toolrooms setup. There worst case senerio is that they have to purchase additional machines, and tooling, expand their space and hire more people. Their sales departments are set up and they are in the market!
     

    JoshuaW

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Jun 18, 2010
    2,266
    38
    South Bend, IN
    You are talking a LOT of money, and a lot of planning. If it was that easy, people would be doing it. You also have to take into consideration that the market will bottom out at some point. At some point people aren't going to want your steel mags, they will want PMags, and they will be able to get them, or they will just buy the cheap Korean GI mags that you used to be able to get for $5.

    It sounds like a good idea, but only if you want to invest half a million dollars to tool up, hire a workforce, and start production in six months, right as the market is starting to heal. In other words, it sounds like a great way to invest $500k and get half of it back, in a best case scenario.
     

    PX4me

    Expert
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Feb 18, 2013
    800
    18
    Dyer
    Its a great idea but I'm with Joshua. Just about the time you finally got up and running, the market would stabilize and you be out a lot of money and time. Not to mention the patents.

    I've got a better idea. Why don't you build a nice indoor/outdoor range in the northwest corner? :D
     

    Magnum

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Jun 27, 2011
    271
    18
    North Indy
    As a retired Engineer that is very familiar with high speed production of metal and plastic item in large quantities it would not be hard to set up to do this.

    BUT, I think you have several issues. 1) Patent rights - I'm sure Magpul and others have most of the patent rights for the current design plastic magazine. 2) There is quite an investment required to produce plastic parts in quantity. Magpul is probably at least running 16 cavity molds on probably 100 ton screw injection mold machines for each side. Then a similar system for the follower.

    These machines and molds are quite expensive and you require Plastic grinders, driers, vacuum feed systems just to start.

    Then you have to set up an inspection department to inspect the parts being molded. You must have a tool room set up to maintain the molds. A maintainance person/crew is also required to maintain the machines. You still have to assemble the mags. Then inspect and package the mags - with a shipping dept and sales to handle distribution. To set this up after design and Lawyer approval of patents or contract to pay an existing patent owner a share, would still require a manufacturing site - (no you can't run these machines in your garage).

    The completion of this with a full staff of maintenance and toolmakers and Engineers and operators, inspectors that are trained in this Industry would take at least a year to year and a half to produce prototypes for approval. By that time Magpul and the other manufacturers will most likely have the market saturated again. Then the mags will b $10 /ea (again).

    The biggest problem with this idea (sorry to be a spoilsport) is that I have seen molded Ar and AK mags made by at least 3 different manufacturers. I am very sure that all of them have investiged the potential for the magazine market and will expand their capacity if the market analysis indicates a reasonable payback and profit.

    Remember they already have the mold design, Patents, inspection, maintainance and toolrooms setup. There worst case senerio is that they have to purchase additional machines, and tooling, expand their space and hire more people. Their sales departments are set up and they are in the market!
    That's exactly what gets me. Why are companies already in this business not producing more? The answer to that question probably explains where the bottleneck in output currently is.
     
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