Do you carry OC / pepper spray?

[Sylvain]

Personally, as a non-LEO I don't attract undue attention to myself to require a need for a "deterrent." If I am confronted with a situation which requires de-escalation then my mouth should work pretty well. If not, then I have hands, elbows, knees, and steel toes. If one feels the need to make such a situation easier and sway the "odds" in their favor then high power stun guns or batons are excellent and will always incapacitate for a while. Excessive? Guess the guy should have listened to my mouth in the first place.

OC is also great against dogs.They dont always listen to your words when they are really angry.
I think postal workers have OC issued to them for that reason.
I think OC is not the answer for everything but it's a great tool in some situations.
I live in a rural area and I think that I have more chances to use my spray against a dog than against a human attacker in the city.
If im attacked by my neighbor's dog I dont want to have to crack his skull open with a baton.Usually just spraying the dog from a distance will make him leave.
And like you said in some situations the use of empty hands techniques or baton would be better than OC, like in case of knife attack and such.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Think of it more as an "avoidance" tool than a purely defensive tool. Its something you might use in order to NOT be forced to use your gun.

Very well stated.

In the LLDOC it was described how one could spray an indoor area with OC to form a type of "chemical wall". Think of a teacher with a classroom of kids when she hears gunshots down a hallway. A thorough dousing of the area outside the barricaded classroom could cause a gunman to turn in another direction.

When I was living in the French Quarter, in New Orleans, I used OC as an 'area denial' device on a number of occasions. Homeless people are very good at getting close to marks before they announce their presence. They do this because they know that the more startled someone is, the more likely they are to give them money to get them to go away. So they get very good at slipping up to people. Anyway, if you paid attention, you could hear them starting to jocky for position. I'd let a small jet of OC, from an ASP Key Defender, out from the bottom of my fist as I was walking. A second or so later, I'd hear the 'cough, cough, cough' as they slipped through it. They knew the gig was up and we never had to talk about it.

As I stated earlier, if all you expect from OC is to get the bad guy to close his eyes for a moment in time, you will never be disappointed. Of course, you must be willing to take advantage of that moment in time!

I am a huge fan of exposure to OC. If you are going to carry it, you need to know what it does to you and how to fight through it.

I first got involved in the OC world while living in Eugene, OR back in 1996. The folks that I got hooked up with were huge proponents of full exposure [anyone who remembers the early days of OC training will recall the Big Shift in OC training towards full exposure] and I did that several times while living in Eugene, along with a number of secondary exposures related to work and play.

When I returned to Louisiana, and started working as a cop in 1999, the academy did not do a full exposure. The 'trainer' sprayed your finger with Freeze +P and you wiped it under one eye 'to experience how painful it was'. I was surprised and disgusted that that was what was being taught in a law enforcement program, but that's what it was.

 

[jgreiner]

So... You CC your OC and OC your CCW?

That sound about right?


WHAT ABOUT THE BACON?!?!?!??!

Pepper spray and bacon.......mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Paul Gomez]

If one feels the need to make such a situation easier and sway the "odds" in their favor then high power stun guns or batons are excellent and will always incapacitate for a while. Excessive? Guess the guy should have listened to my mouth in the first place.

I've never found a stun gun to work. I used to love watching 24 when Jack Bauer could kill 20 guys with his bare hands, disarm bombs, etc, but touch him with a stun gun and he wakes up naked, duck taped to a chair! Same issue with 'The Girl With A Dragon Tattoo'. I've got video footage somewhere of my youngest daughter [6 at the time] hitting me with a stun gun. We did it to prove the point that they were useless as defensive tools. My hand neither spasmed open nor tensed to the point that my hand remained closed.


And, for a mere civilian, the baton is lethal force, same as a gun. Cops get away with the concept of using an impact weapon as 'less lethal' due to training that, in most states, regular folks aren't allowed to claim. TN is the only state that allows its citizens to train and carry a baton and be held to the Law Enforcement standard.

I think of pepper spray as 'value added'. If I have to get in a fight with this dude, would I rather him be at less than 100% [blind and have difficulty breathing] or would I like him to be at 100%? I'll take less than 100% for a $100, Alex!

 

[the1kidd03]

I've never found a stun gun to work. I used to love watching 24 when Jack Bauer could kill 20 guys with his bare hands, disarm bombs, etc, but touch him with a stun gun and he wakes up naked, duck taped to a chair! Same issue with 'The Girl With A Dragon Tattoo'. I've got video footage somewhere of my youngest daughter [6 at the time] hitting me with a stun gun. We did it to prove the point that they were useless as defensive tools. My hand neither spasmed open nor tensed to the point that my hand remained closed.


And, for a mere civilian, the baton is lethal force, same as a gun. Cops get away with the concept of using an impact weapon as 'less lethal' due to training that, in most states, regular folks aren't allowed to claim. TN is the only state that allows its citizens to train and carry a baton and be held to the Law Enforcement standard.

I think of pepper spray as 'value added'. If I have to get in a fight with this dude, would I rather him be at less than 100% [blind and have difficulty breathing] or would I like him to be at 100%? I'll take less than 100% for a $100, Alex!

I completely agree with all your points. You make great examples/demonstrations of where or why a particular tool would be useful to some. Although, I have no personal experience or training with a stun gun other than a taser. I merely assumed a stun gun would be as effective as a taser, which does tend to subdue even the biggest of guys in my experience. They must have a bit more "jolt" to them?

I personally just don't feel the need to carry these devices, but I don't "bash" on anyone who chooses to. I simply advocate that they seek appropriate training for each of the devices they carry for such purposes so they don't potentially cause more harm to themselves.

 

[BiscuitNaBasket]

OK, I'm back.

-- Carrying a gun puts you in a unique situation where you have greater concerns, and fewer options, when it comes to dealing with contacts that do not warrant lethal force.

If a bum approaches you asking for money and you say 'Can't help you' and attempt to keep moving but he refuses to get the message and continues to follow you, what do you do? We all talk about deescalation but what does that really look like?

First, we have to understand the idea of a Use of Force Continuum. The only thing that justifies our use of Lethal Force is that we were in Reasonable Fear of Receiving Great Bodily Injury or Death from whomever we have opted to use force upon.

In Law Enforcement, the Use of Force Continuum looks something like this:

1. Officer Presence
2. Verbal [Generally Tiered--Ask, Tell, Order]
3. Soft Empty Hand [Wrist Locks, Arms Bars, Pressure Points]
4. Hard Empty Hand [Striking]
5. Baton
6. CS
7. Lethal Force

Depending on the agency, CS & Baton will flip flop. When the FBI began issuing OC, they placed it after Verbal and before Soft Empty Hands. Most agencies followed the FBIs lead. The x26 TASER is, generally, fitted into the same spot on the UoFC.

What this means is that using Pepper Spray is such a low level of force [much less than punching someone] that we have a very effective tool to help us regain control of a situation that is spiraling out of control without allowing it to devolve into a lethal force event.

Having tiered verbalizations to enable us to escalate language prior to using greater force is nice. It allows us to establish a progression that any reasonable person can comprehend leading to our use of force [be it lethal or less than lethal].

Having physical tools to assist in controlling the environment also help.

Being able to use a Less Lethal option and resolve a situation without having to resort to beating someone into the dirt or shooting them, generally, results in less heartache for the good guy.

Does this make sense, so far? I'll post some more detailed stuff in the next day or so.

Very good sir! Though I carry enough stuff on me as it is I agree with what you are saying and can see it's unique benefit.

 

[andfc]

I carry it in my hand, with my hand in my jacket pocket.

I do the same thing. Especially in the winter, when I am wearing bulkier clothing that slows down drawing speed, the spray is available immediately.

I carry the Sabre OC Baton Tactical OC Pepper Spray Baton (aprox. 8 shots) which despite being 'tactical', is less obviously pepper spray than most canisters. People usually think it's a flashlight. I like that refills are about $3 each, so I actually practice with it enough to know what it does.

My biggest concern with someone carrying pepper spray for defense is that they all spray differently and deploy differently, and most people never do more than test it for function, if they do that. Under stress, it will be useless.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Guys,

I spoke with Jared before posting this, to make sure the facility that I'll be teaching at has the space to do it, and running water for decon.

I'll be in Bluffton teaching the 22 -24th of June.

On the evening of Saturday, the 23rd of June, from 6pm to around 10pm, I'll be offering an OC/Pepper Spray class. It'll consist of some lecture, some work with inert sprays and a (voluntary) live exposure.

Normally, a four class runs $125. Since this class came up as a result of this thread, I'm thinking of making it $50 for anyone who wants to attend. Minors are free if a parent is attending. If you are attending the pistol class that I'm already teaching that weekend, cost is $25.

Because it's a special deal, to register send an email with INGO OC CLASS in the Subject Line to Gomez AT Gomez-Training.com. Include your name & contact info in the body of the email.

 

[cosermann]

Man, OC is worth it if for nothing BUT dogs. There have been a number of threads here over the years where people have had to shoot dogs - AND the pain in the butt consequences that followed. Much better to have some spray around as an option. Far fewer, if any implications from spraying a dog.

It's just so inexpensive there's no reason not to. Everything has limitations. I like options.

 

[Sylvain]

Man, OC is worth it if for nothing BUT dogs. There have been a number of threads here over the years where people have had to shoot dogs - AND the pain in the butt consequences that followed. Much better to have some spray around as an option. Far fewer, if any implications from spraying a dog.

It's just so inexpensive there's no reason not to. Everything has limitations. I like options.

I agree, one of the reasons why I carry OC.
When you have to use your gun it's usually too late, most of the time it's because you have already been attacked by the dog.
You can shoot the dog but after he has bitten your leg pretty bad.
You cant shoot the dog from a distance because he looks like an angry dog, you would get in trouble.
With OC you can spray in the direction of the dog to keep him away, if you think he could be a threat.

 

[jdwhitak]

If I don't feel like carrying my gun on me I'll carry a lipstick tube size can of Sabre's combo pepper spray / tear gas. I've never been sprayed with anything like this and I don't think I would volunteer for the experience. As far as a bad guy having been through the training to overcome this goes, I don't think that is likely.

 

[Paul Gomez]

As far as a bad guy having been through the training to overcome this goes, I don't think that is likely.

They don't call it training. It's 'operational experience.'

 

[right winger]

I carry Galls MK-3 2oz I have a have a leather case

 

[LawDog76]

I carry Galls MK-3 2oz I have a have a leather case

Toss the MK and buy a can of FOX. MK is crap. I know from experience.