.358 or similar Wildcat options for 2012

[Igotgills2]

I know I am opening a can here, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. I have been thinking, contemplating and been in general thought provoking turmoil on a wildcat build for next years (2012) deer season. I have been told 6 different things by 6 different people and thought it best to look to this sight for the knowledge I so desperately seek.

With the now "confirmed" 1.80" case length regulation change in effect for 2012, I find myself desperate feeling I NEED to have a PCR that I can use to harvest the deer that consistently skirt me at 250-275 yds in either direction. To clarify my thought process here, I typically hunt over open Ag fields and have a very solid base to shoot from. I have a muzzleloader and have no qualms using it to 150-175 but over that gets sketchy for me so thought it time to dig my heels in and determine a good build for this winter.

I am struggling to get a consensus for the parent rifle to use as well. Seems there are proponents for a single shot handi setup but just as many for a bolt action. Then it comes to Savage, Browning or Winchester with T/C thrown in for good measure and the caliber to start with only increases my brains discomfort. I do not want to call someone and write a check for this rifle only to see it on my doorstep in 10-12 weeks, more that I want to be as educated as I can be for this and feel a level of accomplishment that I participated in the process, other than an ink donor, having a hand in the build if possible.

So, to get to the point. I know this has been discussed on here many times but thought I would resurrect the conversation taking into consideration the new length of cartridge allowed. I am not asking for charge recipes (yet) , just data to log in order to get to a starting point that leads me in a positive direction. I am a Novice reloader at best, but willing to learn in order to get to something that achieves my request. I am trying to keep the build as inexpensive as I can but that is subjective to what I get when the build is complete. I hesitate to say that I don't have a budget in mind because we all take this into consideration. I guess it will cost, what it costs and I am A-O-K with that. I have seen several .358 rifle options but all except the .358 Craig are for the 1.625" case length currently in effect. Is there something else that I am missing that would make a "better" option, possibly increasing the bullets energy at 250yds, possibly higher muzzle velocity, less drop etc.... ?

Any and all input is appreciated. If you have information that you choose not to share on the thread, feel free to PM me.

Thanks in advance. Be easy on me for the things that I forgot to ask or details I neglected to mention for I am only human and my head still hurts.

 

[jy951]

The quickest, easiest, and probably least costly would be to buy an Encore receiver and stock set and order a custom barrel in the caliber of your choice. I currently use a custom 500 S&W barrel. With that round, I'm fairly confident to 200yds. Beyond that, I'll be somewhat guessing on holdover. You might consider 460 S&W or one of the .358 rounds.

Another option would be to use an Encore Handgun in a rifle caliber. I've hunted with them before and it's not as easy as everyone thinks. You will need a very solid base.

 

[HuntMeister]

Have you spoken with folks who actually build the wildcats or just those who have interests in or own the wildcat offerings?
Fireball168 here on ingo is a great person to speak with about this as he builds them. AJ Brown in southern Indiana also builds them.
I know there are more but these two fellas are what come to mind at this moment.
I too yearn to build a wildcat and look forward to hearing more details and opinions...

 

[CountryBoy19]

I too am excited to see what the offerings are for new, longer case length. I'm sure Fireball has had something in the works since the discussion first started on extending the max length. With this new max length I think this opens up a whole new door to the possibilities. I think we're getting up into the range of true rifles now.

 

[Igotgills2]

Thanks for the info. I haven't contacted anyone who has built a wildcat specifically, just spoke with a few people that have purchased theirs already built and a few people with plenty of opinions, which is ok in its own right. I definitely will touch base with Fireball168 and AJ Brown. I have heard the name but never had the pleasure of meeting. I guess I was wanting to gain some knowledge before I contacted anyone about the build so I had a good direction.... but maybe that isn't the best route. I'll do a little more work on my end and then move in a direction.

 

[HuntMeister]

Keep us interested folk in the loop as you learn please

Thanks for the info. I haven't contacted anyone who has built a wildcat specifically, just spoke with a few people that have purchased theirs already built and a few people with plenty of opinions, which is ok in its own right. I definitely will touch base with Fireball168 and AJ Brown. I have heard the name but never had the pleasure of meeting. I guess I was wanting to gain some knowledge before I contacted anyone about the build so I had a good direction.... but maybe that isn't the best route. I'll do a little more work on my end and then move in a direction.

 

[kludge]

The good thing about wildcats is there is definitely more than one way to skin a cat. Where to begin...

Speaking of the 35 caliber wildcats, energy is not a problem... not at 250 yards, not at 400 yards. (If the 1000fpe is your measure of "enough" energy). Past 250 yards it's the trajectory that's going to get you. You going to have to know your load intimately. The .358 WSSM, sighted 3" high at 100 will be 3" low at ~235 yards. At 300 it's ~12"-13" low. It's already enough gun... if you're enough shooter.

The .358 WSSM has the same case capacity as the .358 Winchester. A 1.8" long case based on the WSM will put you into/close to .35 Whelen territory.

Who'da thunk that the Indiana "PCR" rifle was going to be a "anything in North America" rifle. I'd probably be a happier with a .25 WSSM as a deer rifle.

"Simple" wildcats are now a reality... .357 Herret, .35/.30-30, and some people will probably try simply trimming down .35 Remington cases and not bothering to rechamber the rifle.

One of the best ideas I've seen for a single shot/lever gun is to use the .338 Marlin Express as the parent, but if you want the max, I'd definitely go for a bolt action... probably using the WSM, but something based of the .375 Ruger or the RCM would make sense too. Plus Ruger actions are really nice.

The WSM case will be used I'm sure, cut off the neck, push the shoulder back, neck up what's left of the shoulder (probably will have to ream/turn the necks, and there's a good chance you'll need to fireform.

If you're a novice reloader, maybe the WSSM is the place to start. If you want to participate in the build as much as possible, then a Savage WSM donor might be what you want. But there's nothing wrong with doing a single shot.

 

[Igotgills2]

thx kludge. Appreciate the info. I have looked at several of the existing .358 WSSM pieces available and have not ruled out that option. Seems that there has been enough trial and error on this to give me a warm fuzzy. Ballistic data for several variants of this cartridge is similar and 1500fpe at 300ish yds is plenty IMHO as long as i do my job on shot placement. Any feedback on the recoil vs. .44 mag rifle or a 12 ga slug? I have noticed a few people saying that the recoil is more than anticipated with 200-220 gr loads. Not sure if thats just subjective and being compared to other .30-.35 cal rifles, or this thing really kicks. I definitely do NOT want to sacrifice velocity by minimizing recoil a lil bit. Have notice that Just hunt guns in wabash has been spitting a few of these out as well....

 

[42769vette]

i have 2 358 bfgs. my 12lb bolt gun is not horible on reciol, my 7-8 lb prohunter has alot of thump. i put muzzlebrakes on them and now its similar to a 20ga slug.

 

[CountryBoy19]

The WSM case will be used I'm sure, cut off the neck, push the shoulder back, neck up what's left of the shoulder (probably will have to ream/turn the necks, and there's a good chance you'll need to fireform.

I think you're right there. Looks like you can take the WSM and bump the shoulder back a little and end up with a nice little package that fits the window of IN law and packs quite a punch down range.

Ugh, and to think that I bought a 458 socom a couple years ago for deer hunting... I think I'm going to have to get me a good WSM wildcat for IN deer hunting now.

 

[451_Detonics]

Have you considered the .375/6mm BR, basically necking the 6mm bench rest case up to 375.

 

[Igotgills2]

451- I haven't even considered that, not because I'm intentionally avoiding it, more like I'm narrow minded and didn't realize it was an option. Any ballistic data on it? case dims, charge/bullet options etc?

 

[451_Detonics]

well...6mm BR case necked up to 375, This means you can use a standard .308 bolt face. Any .375 bullet from around 220 to 350 grains. In an 18 inch barrel you can expect 2200 with a 250 gr. I don't have my books at hand right now.

 

[cgbills]

I thought that the hunting reg said it has to be a straight walled rifle cartridge. Did that change with the case length?

 

[dbd870]

Never had to be straight walled.

 

[kludge]

Any feedback on the recoil vs. .44 mag rifle or a 12 ga slug? I have noticed a few people saying that the recoil is more than anticipated with 200-220 gr loads. Not sure if thats just subjective and being compared to other .30-.35 cal rifles, or this thing really kicks. I definitely do NOT want to sacrifice velocity by minimizing recoil a lil bit. Have notice that Just hunt guns in wabash has been spitting a few of these out as well....

The 358 WSSM doesn't recoil as much as a 2-3/4" 1 oz. slug from a 12 GA. I would say it feels about like my .30-06 with heavy-ish hunting loads. A lot is going to depend on the weight and stock design. Mine comes in a bit over 8 pounds with scope and sling, which is heavier than my .30-06 (a sporterized M1903).

As for barrels, I got the "Savage Magnum Taper" from McGowen. I imagine you could go one size thinner without any problems and save some weight.

I can feel a difference between the 180gr-200gr-225gr bullets, but it's not that much of a difference. The 200gr FTX with velocity kept down a bit(2200-2300fps) is actually downright pleasant.

 

[Igotgills2]

ok..... so whats the skinny on the .357 Herrett? Any good data on this out of a rifle?

 

[fireball168]

My 357 BFG/Herrett short at 1.625" didn't have any problems moving 180's into the upper 2300's out of a 22" .350/.358 1/14 twist barrel.

 

[Skip]

Just got a 358WSSM MGM barrel for my Encore. The wife took a short video of me shooting it.

Here:

At any rate, there are two of us with this setup now and we are working on loads for it. The 225gr SGK with a MILSURP 4895 is showing some promise. It is a thumper though, and that is okay! haha

Since I cast for the 38spl and 357Mag, and I have some wonderful old designs for those calibers, I am thinking of doing some stuff to turn this into an off season squirrel gun! Imagine, a 148gr bullet with a full case of Trail Boss! What, maybe 1200fps from the 26" barrel?

Could be kinda fun!