Four Minneapolis officers fired after death of black man part II

[IndyDave1776]

Ah ok. I understand. So, at least to me, there’s a couple ways to look at this, or interpret the Chief’s words.
First, a head/neck has two rotational points. It’s is completely possible to move one’s head while the neck is being pinned to the ground with weight.
Second, “moderate” means what? It’s undefined. If I say I lift a “moderate” amount of weight at the gym, the next guy might call that “negligible.” So unless there’s a standard we all understand, one can’t really come to an ultimate conclusion.
Lastly, Floyd was described a a “big guy” by Chauvin. What’s the point of restraining a guy with “moderate” pressure? If your intent is to keep a “big guy” immobilized, you’re going to use the amount of force you think is needed to keep him that way. Given a knee on the neck is considered pretty much anywhere as “deadly force,” due to the possibility of injury, it doesn’t make sense to employ what one would consider a moderate use of force.
The Chief doesn’t appear to be lying, and if he was, why didn’t Chauvin’s lawyer attempt to impeach him on that comment?

Floyd was moving his head AND neck.

The medical examiner could simply be a dunce for all I know but given the toxicology and pulmonary edema established to have happened, I am not buying it as a definitive last word. If I remember correctly the riots were starting before the medical examiner's report was released so, yes, motives other than pure and applied science have to be considered.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Floyd was moving his head AND neck.

The medical examiner could simply be a dunce for all I know but given the toxicology and pulmonary edema established to have happened, I am not buying it as a definitive last word. If I remember correctly the riots were starting before the medical examiner's report was released so, yes, motives other than pure and applied science have to be considered.

See. You’re already cooking the books. The medical examiner is a “dunce,” riots are a “motivating factor.” You, and you’re not alone, have your excuses all prepared. I think the only way many people would see this death as even possibly unjustified, was if a guy with no criminal record was walking an old lady across the street, was a Sunday school teacher, and the officer that killed him walked up to him, yelled aloud “I’m going to shoot this guy for no apparent reason,” and then pulled out a non-approved Dept weapon (like a rocket launcher) and blew the guy up.

 

[churchmouse]

See. You’re already cooking the books. The medical examiner is a “dunce,” riots are a “motivating factor.” You, and you’re not alone, have your excuses all prepared. I think the only way many people would see this death as even possibly unjustified, was if a guy with no criminal record was walking an old lady across the street, was a Sunday school teacher, and the officer that killed him walked up to him, yelled aloud “I’m going to shoot this guy for no apparent reason,” and then pulled out a non-approved Dept weapon (like a rocket launcher) and blew the guy up.

You both are at a stretch here.
Seriously the riots were underway as thats what that group does. Petulant children burning **** down in a temper tantrum

Kut, I grew up with MLK as a back drop to all of this. Yes riots occurred. Entire areas were burnt to the ground and the country went nuts. This **** is no longer needed. It can not be justified at any level especially over this incident.

Was/is the LEO wrong.....looks like he could have been but again, to much has been tainted by the MSM in search of revenue and pushing the agendas therein. With his history and actions in this incident hell he probably should have been put out long ago but here we are. With all the wrong things being looked at. .

 

[IndyDave1776]

See. You’re already cooking the books. The medical examiner is a “dunce,” riots are a “motivating factor.” You, and you’re not alone, have your excuses all prepared. I think the only way many people would see this death as even possibly unjustified, was if a guy with no criminal record was walking an old lady across the street, was a Sunday school teacher, and the officer that killed him walked up to him, yelled aloud “I’m going to shoot this guy for no apparent reason,” and then pulled out a non-approved Dept weapon (like a rocket launcher) and blew the guy up.

I offered the possibility of the medical examiner being a dunce as an alternative to his being driven by an agenda. The bottom line is that the medicsl examiner picked asphyxiation as a cause of death and declaring it homicide without accounting for the apparent fact that Floydcwas already dying of his own accord in such a way as to have parallel symptoms in the process.

Make no mistake. From what I have seen Chauvin is not someone I would want for a next door neighbor. That doesn’t mean he should land in prison for murder over an uncooperative suspect who appears to have already been in the process of dying before he arrived on the scene.

 

[Joniki]

Just a guess, but in the video, Floyd was clearly able to lift his head, so Chauvin couldn't have been applying that much pressure.

That, combined with the lack of any bruising suggests that there wasn't any significant force being applied to Floyd's neck.

Positional asphyxia? Maybe, but since Floyd was complaining about not being able to breathe before he was taken down leads one to believe that there was something else in play that was causing his distress.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I am with you here! Pulmonary edema caused by the drugs was in fact in play. As an experienced drug abuser Floyd KNEW this all while he was complaining about everything from his heart to genetal warts. His associate who kept lipping off from the peanut gallery KNEW this. Neither of the bothered telling the truth in the knowledge that Floyd had ingested copious quantities of drugs. Still this magically becomes Chauvin's fault.

I'd like to revisit this, because I became aware of this just the other day. The part bolded, is true. Floyd never told Chauvin that he had ingested dope. You appear, to indicate that he should've told the officer, and that would have possibly made Chauvin handle him in a different manner. Before I go further, is that the gist of it?

 

[T.Lex]

Exactly. This is a USSR-style show trial, logic has left the building. Histrionics, emotion, crying on the stand, and the not-so-veiled threat of riot and retaliation are the order of the day. This is a show for the cameras.

Actually, having been part of that process live, I don't really see much of this that's played to the cameras. Like, almost none.

In every significant criminal case, the prosecution tries to humanize the victim and make them sympathetic. (Which can be difficult.) That emotional connection is important for the jury.

The "veil" on that threat seems pretty complete in the context of the trial. I haven't paid THAT much attention, but has anyone mentioned the riots that followed Floyd's death? Thus far, it seems like the judge has done well to focus both parties on the facts of the case.

Now, those riots are the reality. I don't know how they jury can completely set it aside, but they swore an oath to decide this case based on the evidence presented. We should expect them to do that.

Some people, not on the jury, have obviously made up their mind about what the verdict should be. That's part of how our system works. But if you're not on the jury, then that opinion may be interesting, but is still irrelevant.

What used to be fodder for parlor room discussions is now served up in internet forums.

 

[Leadeye]

My son and I were talking about this, he lives in Atlanta. He thinks the policeman will be acquitted, I think he'll be convicted of something and then be Epsteined in prison. Leadership won't let him out even if he serves his sentence, and there's always the possibility he would kill another black man in prison if involved in a fight.

The focus of this "trial" is not the trial itself or what "justice" it produces, it's all about what happens next.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Just wondering aloud here, but Floyd’s autopsy stated his death as being a homicide. Then two other medical examiner’s commissioned by the Floyd family concurred with that original opinion. Are these opinions not relevant? I know that many think there’s some vast conspiracy at play, to “save people’s careers,” or “so that the riots don’t burn down the city.” I see these as **** poor arguments, that indicate an unwillingness to look at the facts being presented and testified to by professionals. Essentially disregarding everything because of the belief in said conspiracy, regardless of how relevant it may be.

The "official" autopsy didn't state his death as being a homicide. It stated "CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION". The two that were hired by the family I haven't actually seen the results, but let's just say I would take their testimony with a bit more than a grain of salt. The ME stated under questioning his death was caused by the Chauvin, under cross he stated it could have been caused by OD and his heart problems. His heart was enlarged for both his height and weight and he had anywhere between 25-90% narrowing of his coronary arteries.

With the drugs he had in his system, his coronary problems, him stating he couldn't breath long before they had him on the ground, no bruising found on his neck, and the fact that the ME couldn't say definitively what caused his death leads me to reasonable doubt. Not to mention the coroner stated before the trial if Floyd would have been found dead on the street or in an apartment/house he would have wrote it up as OD/coronary disease.

You also asked someone else if they thought Chauvin would have treated/handled Floyd differently if they would have been told he was wacked out on fentanyl/meth. Don't know, but I'd say there would have been a good chance they would have called for an ambulance long before they had him proned out on the ground.
Autopsy

https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf

 

[Kutnupe14]

The "official" autopsy didn't state his death as being a homicide. It stated "CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION". The two that were hired by the family I haven't actually seen the results, but let's just say I would take their testimony with a bit more than a grain of salt. The ME stated under questioning his death was caused by the Chauvin, under cross he stated it could have been caused by OD and his heart problems. His heart was enlarged for both his height and weight and he had anywhere between 25-90% narrowing of his coronary arteries.

With the drugs he had in his system, his coronary problems, him stating he couldn't breath long before they had him on the ground, no bruising found on his neck, and the fact that the ME couldn't say definitively what caused his death leads me to reasonable doubt. Not to mention the coroner stated before the trial if Floyd would have been found dead on the street or in an apartment/house he would have wrote it up as OD/coronary disease.

You also asked someone else if they thought Chauvin would have treated/handled Floyd differently if they would have been told he was wacked out on fentanyl/meth. Don't know, but I'd say there would have been a good chance they would have called for an ambulance long before they had him proned out on the ground.
Autopsy

https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf

Uhhhh.... not sure if srs? Or don’t understand what “CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION" means.

 

[nonobaddog]

See. You’re already cooking the books. The medical examiner is a “dunce,” riots are a “motivating factor.” You, and you’re not alone, have your excuses all prepared. I think the only way many people would see this death as even possibly unjustified, was if a guy with no criminal record was walking an old lady across the street, was a Sunday school teacher, and the officer that killed him walked up to him, yelled aloud “I’m going to shoot this guy for no apparent reason,” and then pulled out a non-approved Dept weapon (like a rocket launcher) and blew the guy up.

This is full of... hyperbole.

 

[Kutnupe14]

This is full of... hyperbole.

Well yeah. I don't know a PD that has a rocket launcher.

 

[nonobaddog]

This should be irrelevant but the sidewalk kibitzers probably did more harm than the good they thought they were doing. When you start yelling and telling officers what they should do that is like a challenge to who is in control of the situation. The officers were in control and they were not about to give up that control because of shouted instructions from onlookers. So the more they yelled for Chauvin to stop restraining Floyd that actually could have prolonged the restraint.
I am definitely not saying this as any excuse for the officer's actions or that they have any less responsibility for their person in custody but I am simply saying this as a criticism of the mouthy people that wouldn't stay on the sidewalk and became a distraction to the officers and could have been perceived as a challenge to their control.

 

[Kutnupe14]

This should be irrelevant but the sidewalk kibitzers probably did more harm than the good they thought they were doing. When you start yelling and telling officers what they should do that is like a challenge to who is in control of the situation. The officers were in control and they were not about to give up that control because of shouted instructions from onlookers. So the more they yelled for Chauvin to stop restraining Floyd that actually could have prolonged the restraint.
I am definitely not saying this as any excuse for the officer's actions or that they have any less responsibility for their person in custody but I am simply saying this as a criticism of the mouthy people that wouldn't stay on the sidewalk and became a distraction to the officers and could have been perceived as a challenge to their control.

A group of 50 sure... that lil band of mouthy people? No. Unless you're saying the officers were holding fast just to be ****s, I don't think that the group really bothered them all that much.

 

[nonobaddog]

A group of 50 sure... that lil band of mouthy people? No. Unless you're saying the officers were holding fast just to be ****s, I don't think that the group really bothered them all that much.

Hopefully not, but they were trying and I think their behavior was just the opposite of helpful. One officer had to be herding them back to the sidewalk when he could have been observing Floyd or something more useful.

 

[T.Lex]

Hopefully not, but they were trying and I think their behavior was just the opposite of helpful. One officer had to be herding them back to the sidewalk when he could have been observing Floyd or something more useful.

Like CPR.

 

[nonobaddog]

Like CPR.

Yes! Exactly.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Uhhhh.... not sure if srs? Or don’t understand what “CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION" means.

Yes, it means he died of heart failure. The actions of the police were complicating factors, doesn't necessarily mean that they caused it. Now in the ME's press release he does state it was homicide, but also goes on to say that is merely a statutory function of his office for public records and has no legal bearing. It also lists as other significant conditions his heart disease, blocked arteries, and drug use. And once again the autopsy showed no exterior or interior contusions/hemorrhaging on his neck. But did list it other places such as his left shoulder where it appears Chauvin had his right knee placed.

 

[T.Lex]

Yes, it means he died of heart failure. The actions of the police were complicating factors, doesn't necessarily mean that they caused it. Now in the ME's press release he does state it was homicide, but also goes on to say that is merely a statutory function of his office for public records and has no legal bearing. It also lists as other significant conditions his heart disease, blocked arteries, and drug use. And once again the autopsy showed no exterior or interior contusions/hemorrhaging on his neck. But did list it other places such as his left shoulder where it appears Chauvin had his right knee placed.

The ME report/death certificates are not intended for public consumption despite being public records, even in highly publicized cases. The words are used in specific ways, and can be twisted into a Rorschach test.

The report you're referencing also supports the contention that if Chauvin had stopped doing whatever he was doing in a timely way, Floyd would not have died the way he actually died. We don't know if he would've died in some other way, at some other time. But that's not what the jury has to decide.

It will be important to see what the ME/coroner says, along with the other experts that the State has listed.

 

[d.kaufman]

And the BLM is already threatening to burn the city down if not found guilty

"Cities Will Be on Fire" - Black Lives Matter Activist Warns "All Hell Will Break Loose" If Officer Chauvin Is Not Convicted in George Floyd Death | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hoft

Black Lives Matter activist Maya Echols, who is also a signed model with IMG Worldwide, warned in a recent Tik-Tok video that “cities will burn” if Police Officer Derek Chauvin is not convicted in the death of drug addict and thief George Floyd.

www.thegatewaypundit.com