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    Trump doesn't get credit for the losses. I think blame is more appropriate because he picked losers in important races. And he may have picked losers in some of the uncontested races too, but which facts would be obscured by the R+20 districts they're in. It would only be brought to our attention if they lost.

    But fine. Forget about whether they're idiots or geniuses. I'm willing to grant you that despite his lack of judgement when it counted. But you guys can't even accept that's the case. Point is, we didn't lose the Senate race because of the 83%. We lost it because we had 3 opportunities to win contested Senate races. AZ, PA, and GA. Trump went 0 for 3 there. I think 2-3 would have been hard but doable with sane candidates. 1-3 would have kept status quo. 0-3 and the Senate is controlled by Dems outright. Now they don't even need Manchin's vote. We're kinda ****ed.
    Well enough. Did you catch the news about Sienma (sp?) leaving the D's and becoming Independent?
     

    jamil

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    The same person using all caps with exclamation points to declare Donny a loser. If loss of emotional control while discussing Trump's winning record of endorsements leads to name calling (Donny moniker) and screaming (in text context) isn't TDS, I can't imagine what is.
    Well, probably not how I would approach it. Seems like there's some hard feelings there. But the points made are generally solid. You guys seem to throw TDS at any point that denies Trump's deity. And of course that's hyperbolic just to make the point. Pretty much anything less than Trump is perfect gets TDS thrown back.

    I agree that some people irrationally interpret Trump's actions with the least charity possible. Consistently doing that is legitimately TDS, IMO. And there's an opposite end to that too. I think that consistently, irrationally, interpreting all of Trump's actions as "winning" or whatever is just as delusional.
     

    jamil

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    Well enough. Did you catch the news about Sienma (sp?) leaving the D's and becoming Independent?

    yeah. I did. Probably not a victory. She said she isn't changing the way she's voting. She won't caucus with Republicans. Didn't really say that she will caucus with Democrats though. I think effectively, it sounds to me like she's still contributing to the same majority.
     

    jamil

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    Your point presupposes that there was fruit to pick that was not rotten. That there was a candidate that could win.

    Interestingly enough dem voters have no resistance to electing a candidate that is what we all would agree is unquestionably unqualified but conservatives do. But you have to run what you can recruit or the other options are RINO or dem…
    So your proposal to relieve symptoms from cognitive dissonance is to claim that there was no one but a hasbeen football player, who spent time in the nuthouse, was all there was? That explanation is more satisfying to you than Trump picked poorly?

    And. How about this. there'll just be some jurisdictions where a Trumpian candidate can't win. Better a RINO than a DEM. Each Democrat is a vote for bat **** crazy policies. No guarantee that RINOs won't vote for bat **** crazy. We've seen it before. Changes are less. The big point is who gets to chose which legislation gets in. So get a majority. Go for a majority of AF candidates so that they get the gavel, put the RINOs on meaningless committees. Strong arm them as much as possible to vote with you. Play the game. Mitch McConnell is a Coc/neocon turd. Would love to see him ousted. Would love to see an AF candidate take his place as Republican leader. But that ************ can play the game. AF candidates need to learn it.
     

    BugI02

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    And that's always been the main point in this discussion raised by the people who have an ability to see faults that you guys can't see, because your devotion to a mere mortal blinds you to reality
    How would you characterize your relationship with your mother?
     

    BugI02

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    So there isn't any need to go dozens of pages to figure that out. It is what it is. Just admit it and move on. Trump picked some losers and that cost us the Senate, and possibly a bigger majority in the House. Those were contested races. But winnable. Because of the economy and people being fed up with woke ********.
    A} The facts needed to support your conclusions are not in evidence, unless you rate Jamil's opinions = fact

    B) Given the entirety of the election results, I would say your belief that people were fed up with woke ******** is an overstatement. I know you want it ALL to be Trump's fault but the majority of the races Trump had very little to do with. When predictions were for a 30 to 50 seat gain in the house; how, exactly, do you lay the reality solely at Trump's door. Please quantify the 'Trump effect' on all the races we lost, show your work
     

    jamil

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    A} The facts needed to support your conclusions are not in evidence, unless you rate Jamil's opinions = fact

    B) Given the entirety of the election results, I would say your belief that people were fed up with woke ******** is an overstatement.
    Okay. Fair enough. that point does need qualifying. In VA, Younkin won because of the trans person who raped a student and the school covered it up. A lot has been written about that disecting the mood of Virginians. That wasn't the only issue. But schools refusing to listen to the concerns of parents about the wokeness was pretty far up there.

    But you only focused on that one. The point was that the environment was very favorable to anyone opposing Democrats. In a horrible economy, rampant crime, food shortages, all attributable to Democrat's policies, the races in purple areas should have been winnable.

    I know you want it ALL to be Trump's fault but the majority of the races Trump had very little to do with. When predictions were for a 30 to 50 seat gain in the house; how, exactly, do you lay the reality solely at Trump's door. Please quantify the 'Trump effect' on all the races we lost, show your work
    I don't want it to be Trump's fault. I wanted Republicans to take advantage of Democrat's vulnerabilities and win the House and Senate. That didn't happen. So why? What can we attribute that to? Cheating? Maybe. ****** candidates? Now that's a fact in plain evidence. Who hand-picked the candidates? Who bragged about "winning" in the primaries because the Trumpers won, especially with the help of Democrats. The facts point to Trump. But, I know. You want it not to be Trump's fault at all. This side of the divide isn't irrationally defending the poor choices by Trump.

    Let me ask a binary question. First, let's establish that no one else made Walker. Without Trump Walker might as well still be in the nuthouse. So the question is, even in hindsight, or whatever, did Trump make a mistake in picking Walker? Two possible answers. Yes. No.
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    Your point presupposes that there was fruit to pick that was not rotten. That there was a candidate that could win.

    Interestingly enough dem voters have no resistance to electing a candidate that is what we all would agree is unquestionably unqualified but conservatives do. But you have to run what you can recruit or the other options are RINO or dem…
    For starters, how about Ducey in Arizona and just about anybody NOT named Oz or Walker in PA and GA?
     

    BugI02

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    Yes, obviously

    Did Trump know Walker had been in the nuthouse? If not, was it a mistake that had never been made before, unique to Trump? Can you say Eagleton?. Can you adequately vet a candidate if they are not forthcoming? It's not like the secret service will investigate them for you. And if celebrity is useless explain the governator and realize that Walker was a bona fide celebrity in GA

    I would have thought paying for your girlfriend to have an abortion (or two) would have hurt him more

    Oz was a mistake, too. The crudités thing was GHW Bush not knowing what milk cost all over again. But where I think you go wrong is believing normal vetting could have weeded those flaws out prior to endorsing. I'm still waiting for evidence that Hedge Fund man would have done better than Oz, given the fact the PA electorate preferred Oz over him and surely, by your lights, the 'cult of Trump' that you wish to credit with his primary win would still vote for him. I look forward to reviewing your hard evidence that proves that a former CEO of Bridgewater, who stepped down to try for that Senate seat, would have done enough better to win the seat

    I think Oz made less sense than Walker, frankly. But I can at least see that perhaps they had internal polling that led them to believe the base wouldn't go for a vulture capitalist in this day and age. AF is blue collar
     

    BugI02

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    For starters, how about Ducey in Arizona and just about anybody NOT named Oz or Walker in PA and GA?
    There is nothing about Ducey that leads me to believe he would have done much better than Masters, who is a genuine rising star. Isn't name recognition just another form of celebrity

    If Kari Lake couldn't get elected (for whatever reason) Ducey wasn't going to either

    You like to throw around that Trump's picks lost but I'm still waiting for some kind of evidence (not opinion) that the folks you think should have been run would have done any better. You know, exit polls, internal campaign polling etc not just declaring that they would have done better evidence-free
     

    jamil

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    Yes, obviously

    Did Trump know Walker had been in the nuthouse? If not, was it a mistake that had never been made before, unique to Trump? Can you say Eagleton?. Can you adequately vet a candidate if they are not forthcoming? It's not like the secret service will investigate them for you. And if celebrity is useless explain the governator and realize that Walker was a bona fide celebrity in GA

    I would have thought paying for your girlfriend to have an abortion (or two) would have hurt him more

    Oz was a mistake, too. The crudités thing was GHW Bush not knowing what milk cost all over again. But where I think you go wrong is believing normal vetting could have weeded those flaws out prior to endorsing. I'm still waiting for evidence that Hedge Fund man would have done better than Oz, given the fact the PA electorate preferred Oz over him and surely, by your lights, the 'cult of Trump' that you wish to credit with his primary win would still vote for him. I look forward to reviewing your hard evidence that proves that a former CEO of Bridgewater, who stepped down to try for that Senate seat, would have done enough better to win the seat

    I think Oz made less sense than Walker, frankly. But I can at least see that perhaps they had internal polling that led them to believe the base wouldn't go for a vulture capitalist in this day and age. AF is blue collar
    Okay. So this reads more like yes, it was a mistake, but no, it wasn't.
     

    KG1

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    That whole PA primary was a cluster **** of **** candidates. Trump originally endorsed Sean Parnell who ended up dropping out due to allegations of abuse from his estranged wife. Then Trump endorses Oz because he liked him on a personal level over McCormick. Parnell was critical of Trump for picking Oz and he endorsed McCormick. Oooof.
     

    BugI02

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    Okay. So this reads more like yes, it was a mistake, but no, it wasn't.
    Well, since Trump has accomplished way more than both of us put together, one of us tries to come up with some rational reason for why he did the things he did beyond he is stupid or egotistical or yada yada, because successful accomplished people are usually not stupid

    And one of us does not

    So, take it or leave it
     

    KLB

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    Okay. Fair enough. that point does need qualifying. In VA, Younkin won because of the trans person who raped a student and the school covered it up. A lot has been written about that disecting the mood of Virginians. That wasn't the only issue. But schools refusing to listen to the concerns of parents about the wokeness was pretty far up there.

    But you only focused on that one. The point was that the environment was very favorable to anyone opposing Democrats. In a horrible economy, rampant crime, food shortages, all attributable to Democrat's policies, the races in purple areas should have been winnable.


    I don't want it to be Trump's fault. I wanted Republicans to take advantage of Democrat's vulnerabilities and win the House and Senate. That didn't happen. So why? What can we attribute that to? Cheating? Maybe. ****** candidates? Now that's a fact in plain evidence. Who hand-picked the candidates? Who bragged about "winning" in the primaries because the Trumpers won, especially with the help of Democrats. The facts point to Trump. But, I know. You want it not to be Trump's fault at all. This side of the divide isn't irrationally defending the poor choices by Trump.

    Let me ask a binary question. First, let's establish that no one else made Walker. Without Trump Walker might as well still be in the nuthouse. So the question is, even in hindsight, or whatever, did Trump make a mistake in picking Walker? Two possible answers. Yes. No.
    You left out the backlash over abortion. The Ds painted the Rs as in favor of blocking all abortions all the time. I'm sure that played no small part in at least some of those losses.
     

    oze

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    This quoting back and forth thread started with my post on Georgia.

    Trump was butt hurt over Georgia 2020 and set out for revenge... on REPPUBLICANS! His ONLY win in Georgia was Herschel Walker from nowhere to win the primary.

    Other than two Democratic Senators... the state is RED... all state posts and both houses of the legislature. But TWO Dem Senators thanks to Trump's petty tantrums.

    Trump's "wins" gave and continue to give the gavel to Schumer.

    I call that LOSING.
    The petulant lead up to the 2020 GA Senatorial runoff and the resultant loss of what should have been 2 solid slam-dunk wins for the elephants is what tipped me into the ABT camp, primary version.
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    The same person using all caps with exclamation points to declare Donny a loser. If loss of emotional control while discussing Trump's winning record of endorsements leads to name calling (Donny moniker) and screaming (in text context) isn't TDS, I can't imagine what is.
    When Trump said we'd be tired of winning so much, I had a different picture entirely. :rolleyes:

    You know, actually WINNING.

    There is nothing about Ducey that leads me to believe he would have done much better than Masters, who is a genuine rising star. Isn't name recognition just another form of celebrity

    If Kari Lake couldn't get elected (for whatever reason) Ducey wasn't going to either

    You like to throw around that Trump's picks lost but I'm still waiting for some kind of evidence (not opinion) that the folks you think should have been run would have done any better. You know, exit polls, internal campaign polling etc not just declaring that they would have done better evidence-free
    Ducey was re-elected governor of Arizona in 2018 by over 14%.

    But yes, a venture capitalist who's never even run, let alone been elected, to office ever... had just as good of a shot as a popular two-term governor. :rolleyes:
     

    jamil

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    You left out the backlash over abortion. The Ds painted the Rs as in favor of blocking all abortions all the time. I'm sure that played no small part in at least some of those losses.
    I think that’s true.
     

    Timjoebillybob

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    Your point presupposes that there was fruit to pick that was not rotten. That there was a candidate that could win.

    Interestingly enough dem voters have no resistance to electing a candidate that is what we all would agree is unquestionably unqualified but conservatives do. But you have to run what you can recruit or the other options are RINO or dem…
    Well for Georgia at least there was somebody running who has shown that they can win a statewide election 3x. Gary Black the current Commissioner of Agriculture. Most of the rest of the bench was pretty deep as well. Which of the other primary candidates in GA would you consider a Rino?
    Yes, obviously

    Did Trump know Walker had been in the nuthouse? If not, was it a mistake that had never been made before, unique to Trump? Can you say Eagleton?. Can you adequately vet a candidate if they are not forthcoming? It's not like the secret service will investigate them for you. And if celebrity is useless explain the governator and realize that Walker was a bona fide celebrity in GA

    I would have thought paying for your girlfriend to have an abortion (or two) would have hurt him more

    Oz was a mistake, too. The crudités thing was GHW Bush not knowing what milk cost all over again. But where I think you go wrong is believing normal vetting could have weeded those flaws out prior to endorsing. I'm still waiting for evidence that Hedge Fund man would have done better than Oz, given the fact the PA electorate preferred Oz over him and surely, by your lights, the 'cult of Trump' that you wish to credit with his primary win would still vote for him. I look forward to reviewing your hard evidence that proves that a former CEO of Bridgewater, who stepped down to try for that Senate seat, would have done enough better to win the seat

    I think Oz made less sense than Walker, frankly. But I can at least see that perhaps they had internal polling that led them to believe the base wouldn't go for a vulture capitalist in this day and age. AF is blue collar
    The PA electorate "preferred" him by .1%/950votes. And that is with reports of dems crossing over to vote in the primary. And Hedge fund guy vs WEF guy? I'd give that a toss up at best with a most likely nod towards Hedge fund guy. US military guy vs Foreign military guy? No contest. So while not hard evidence I see nothing to make me think that with Trump's backing he wouldn't have done better.

    As for Walker being vetted shouldn't that have been done when Trump appointed him to the President's Council on Fitness? Not to mention that he wrote about his mental illness in his 2008 book Breaking Free. Trump should have at least known about his 3 illegitimate children since he disclosed it on a confidential form during vetting for said council. Not a really good look for a guy who's running partly on a family platform who says that fathers should be in their children's lives.

    ETA For the Governator, yes his celebrity status did help. I'm also sure him being married to a Kennedy didn't hurt at all either, especially in deep blue CA.
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    Who is saying there's no such thing as TDS.
    The same person using all caps with exclamation points to declare Donny a loser. If loss of emotional control while discussing Trump's winning record of endorsements leads to name calling (Donny moniker) and screaming (in text context) isn't TDS, I can't imagine what is.
    So, MF.... where exactly did I state anything like there is no such thing as TDS? I'll wait...

    For there record, there is and has been for sometime TDS. Rampant TDS. The traditional meaning was that ANYTHING and EVERYTHING Trump said or did was opposed by the progs and NeverTrumpers, reflexively.

    He used it to great effect to rope them into indefensible positions...

    Now, apparently, TDS is any and all criticism of Trump. Well, whatever... as the mini-Vader mentions above, much like -isms, defining it down also means losing it's effect.

    What you term "loss of emotional control" I'll let you in on a not so secret confidence: I'm beyond ****ed off at Trump. I'm mad as hell and not taking it anymore. His actions based solely upon his own petty, small-minded self-interest, delusions and revenge-fantasies have led this country in EXACTLY the opposite direction of making America great again. His actions over and over again have put TRUMP FIRST and AMERICA LAST.

    I do think that anyone who doesn't see that, or at least consider how a former Trump supporter could see things that way, well I do think that such rosy-eyed Trumpers suffer from another form of TDS - Trump Delusion Syndrome - the opposite of traditional TDS that posits anything and everything Trump says or does is RIGHT.

    Much like TDS 1.0, TDS 2.0 leads adherents to indefensible, nonsensical positions. Just the flip side of the same coin.

    So, anyway, I'm done, done and done with Trump.

    Color me a Never Again Trump'er because to me he's "Donny the Loser", a sore loser at that, and pulling MAGA and AF down with him - and THAT is what makes me ANGRY.
     

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