Training to Reholster: Look at holster ?

[Coach]

My thoughts are this. So many ranges prohibit drawing from the holster. Drawing from is not dangerous. It is re-holstering that is dangerous. I recommend to my clients that one they never re-holster in a hurry. There is no reason for that. In competition the timer stopped with the last shot fired. In a more serious application I should not be re-holstering if there is any chance that another threat is present. The number one thing in mind while re-holstering is to do it safely. Keep a good register position, make sure the holster is not obstructed, and re-holster with one hand. If you need to look at the holster do so.

Any class that is violating the four rules of gun safety as you describe is no place to be. The people being swept is when I would have made my exit.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

Hi Dusty,

Thanks for taking the time to post your experience. The training community needs to be self-policing.

I think the act of reholstering has been misunderstood and therefore miss-taught. The salient point is that one should strive to become familiar enough with their equipment that fundamental gun handling is reflexive (clear cover garments, presentation, reloading, malfunction clearing, reholster, etc). As such, all should work to develop their skills to the point where looking at the holster to reholster is unnecessary. However, like every other skill, it is learned through diligent practice and not every gun owner is willing to put in the effort to master these skills.

This goal has been misinterpreted by some 'trainers' and in their attempt to enlighten the novice student, they over emphasize this rather minor skill. No one (that I've met) starts out with the required skills to safely reholster without looking at the holster and as stated above, it should not be an expectation while learning the fundamentals.

Good for you for keeping your head in the game and applying your critical reasoning to this training class.

Please keep seeking quality training.

Craig

For Law Enforcement learning to reholstering without looking is good skill. Usually those professionals are uniformed and wearing a duty belt. Equipment should be in basically the same place. LEO needs to watch the suspect during reholstering.

For the rest of us reholstering is a deliberate act. If it is safe enough to reholster the gun it should also be safe enough to take a quick glance to make sure there is nothing in the way. Opinions on this differ. I have trained with people who strongly discourage looking down while reholstering.

Yes...

Again, please keep using your head!

 

[foszoe]

Sorry, I mistook the popcorn for you looking for controversy. Carry on

Most people don't use the Thread Tools/Subscribe to thread link at the top. They prefer popcorn

 

[dusty88]

Most people don't use the Thread Tools/Subscribe to thread link at the top. They prefer popcorn

Yeah, sorry. In another forum I frequent, "popcorn" is used when the argument becomes more entertaining than the topic. I'll try to keep up

 

[ATM]

Yeah, sorry. In another forum I frequent, "popcorn" is used when the argument becomes more entertaining than the topic. I'll try to keep up

On-topic arguments are the best entertainment.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Drawing from is not dangerous. It is re-holstering that is dangerous.

Ehhh, I wouldn't go quite that far. I've talked with enough folks with brand new holes in their legs that did so on the draw to say it can also be dangerous. Getting on the trigger real early, especially if doing so while seated in a car, is the usual cause. I agree it's less dangerous than reholstering, though.

We're at 62 AD/ND causing injury or death so far this year in the county (and likely more due to some pretty sketchy "robbery" scenarios to explain gun shots to the off hand with powder residue...). People can find a way to make putting a gun in a drawer dangerous.

 

[Lelliott8]

Good way to ventilate one self.

Racing to reholster is the some of the dumbest crap I have seen in my life.

Doesn't surprise me though, from the crop of "Gun Instructors" out there.

I've never understood this either. What's the point of quickly reholstering? Are you worried about getting mistaken as an active shooter by police? Drop your gun! Are you worried there may be more threats? Keep your gun in your hand! I think people are making this into way too much of a thing. If you no longer need to use your gun, carefully put it away. Don't complicate this.

 

[MohawkSlim]

Look/no look, see above. This comes down to what the instructor's personal beliefs are on the topic and the task at hand. There are instances where both could be beneficial but as you note, doing so in a brand noob training class probably isn't time well spent. Is it unsafe? You said the firearms were double checked to be clear. It would be a hard argument to prove pointing unloaded firearms at anything is unsafe. (And that gets us firmly back into the 4 Rules debate where people get shot with loaded guns they thought were unloaded.)

My question is why having a gun pointed at you that's been double checked to be clear makes you uncomfortable enough to leave the class, especially without saying something to the instructor? You note watching closely to make sure they were all clear but then somehow it made you nervous enough that you still left. Do you not trust your own eyes? Do guns somehow magically shoot with no ammo in them?

I don't encourage anyone to remain in a class where they feel unsafe. But, for the life of me, I can't understand how these 4 Rules can trump what we personally witness. "I've read on the internet we should never sweep someone with a gun and there's some sweeping going on. Even though I personally witnessed that firearm be double checked so it's clear, this sinking feeling of danger is taking over. I'm leaving." If it's something that extreme why not take the instructor aside and say, "Hey, about that sweeping....." Perhaps even suggesting a better way would lead to feeling safer.

Nobody wants to be "that guy" who stops the class and pulls the instructor to the side or asks the question "Why are we sweeping each other with guns? Isn't that a violation of the 4 Safety Rules?" but if it's important enough, maybe it's worth the time to do so.

 

[dusty88]

Look/no look, see above. This comes down to what the instructor's personal beliefs are on the topic and the task at hand. There are instances where both could be beneficial but as you note, doing so in a brand noob training class probably isn't time well spent. Is it unsafe? You said the firearms were double checked to be clear. It would be a hard argument to prove pointing unloaded firearms at anything is unsafe. (And that gets us firmly back into the 4 Rules debate where people get shot with loaded guns they thought were unloaded.)

Using the unloaded guns in the classrooms was IMO unnecessary and just a plain bad idea. I agree the "reholster without looking" is more debatable. But the class was just told to reholster without looking and THEN was going out to the range to practice. During the classroom time, there was no emphasis nor even mention of negligent discharge when reholstering. They may have covered that better on the line. But the combination of NOT focusing on avoiding ND while focusing on DONT look at your holster was IMO poor instruction, from the safety standpoint. Also, there were lefties there and there was someone cross-drawing. Were they lined up appropriately to reduce the risk of shooting each other? possibly. But as I had just witnessed an unusual practice in the classroom, I wasn't going to assume good practices on the line.

My question is why having a gun pointed at you that's been double checked to be clear makes you uncomfortable enough to leave the class, especially without saying something to the instructor? You note watching closely to make sure they were all clear but then somehow it made you nervous enough that you still left. Do you not trust your own eyes? Do guns somehow magically shoot with no ammo in them?

I could see that they were all being checked. I didn't do it myself.
Crap happens. One woman, for example, had 2 guns. I often have 2 guns. Let's suppose I had one checked, didn't mention the other, then misremembered and drew the wrong one.
Procedure matters. Not following procedures will eventually cause accidents.
More importantly, there was no benefit to doing this exercise in the classroom. The same exercise could have been done on the firing line without the risk.

I don't encourage anyone to remain in a class where they bfeel unsafe. But, for the life of me, I can't understand how these 4 Rules can trump what we personally witness. "I've read on the internet we should never sweep someone with a gun and there's some sweeping going on. Even though I personally witnessed that firearm be double checked so it's clear, this sinking feeling of danger is taking over. I'm leaving."

It's not about something I read "on the internet". Guns have been around longer than the internet, and so has risk. I used to be a skydiving instructor. Currently, I often administer anesthesia to pets. I also scuba dive. We used to own a small aircraft. All of these activities have something in common with shooting: people who get in trouble usually violated their own rules and their own important processes. You will also find that to be true if you read the books about the big Everest accident about 20 years ago. Most of those people died because the leaders ignored their own standards.

I'll take some risk in exchange for benefit. But there was no benefit to having people in the muzzle-sweep during this exercise. Had it been some type of force-on-force training there might have been some benefit.

Although I did say "heebie-jeebies" I don't think this was just about my "feelings" so much as the more I thought about it, it was just plain a bad idea.

If it's something that extreme why not take the instructor aside and say, "Hey, about that sweeping....." Perhaps even suggesting a better way would lead to feeling safer.

I'm not saying I handled this perfectly. In fact I didn't. I entered the classroom in a pretty relaxed mode, expecting to worry at first about listening, questions, discussion. Then this unusual pattern starts and I find myself going along with it, deciding that I can personally draw without sweeping anyone and that all the guns were checked. I was very conflicted. I was not myself qualified to teach this class so I was very hesitant to contradict the instructor. In hindsight, yes I would have said something sooner.

Nobody wants to be "that guy" who stops the class and pulls the instructor to the side or asks the question "Why are we sweeping each other with guns? Isn't that a violation of the 4 Safety Rules?" but if it's important enough, maybe it's worth the time to do so.

Yes that should have been the moment. And if the instructor wanted to proceed as proposed, then I would have left anyway.


To me, this is like riding a bike without a helmet. Sure you can do it and mostly you live. But I can enjoy my bicycling with my helmet on and lower my risk.
Another way to put it is that you never assume there won't be human error. There will be. Plan accordingly.

 

[VERT]

I wasn't there obviously and I have no doubt the OP saw cause for concern. So far as unloaded dry practice in the classroom, that may or may not have been a safety issue. It is entirely possible to dry practice safely off the range. Similarly the room may not have been properly oriented for such activity. Of course if the weather was cooperative there is no reason not to practice outside.

Not feeling comfortable with others gun handling is a different animal. Seems more practice might have been in order.

 

[rhino]

My comments:

1. If you were uncomfortable with the safety (or lack thereof), leaving was exactly the right thing to do. It takes a lot of guts and confidence to leave a class that way. I know quite a few people who should have left and knew it, but chose not to leave for a variety of reasons. I applaud you!
2. As others have mentioned, re-holstering without looking at the holster is a good skill to develop, but it's odd that an instructor would insist that their students not look while they're still learning the basics. The reason that you might miss a threat doesn't make sense. Again, as others mentioned, if you haven't already checked, your gun should still be out and re-holstering comes after checking for additional threats, when you are confident that's it's prudent and safe to reholster.
3. Re-holstering is like re-loading. If you need to look to get the job done efficiently and safely, then look for as long as you need to look.

I left a training class today because i was concerned about the safety protocols I was witnessing.

There is one thing I don't feel certain about, though I feel certain it wasn't appropriate for this group at this time. We were demonstrating/discussing drawing from the holster and reholstering. The instructor asked that we not look at our holster when reholstering. I can see a benefit of being able to reholster without looking. I can see a benefit of practicing this under the right circumstances, so you can reholster 1-handed (especially an LEO). I can't understand a benefit of telling people NOT to look while you are training them, especially beginners. I am certain that some of the attendees had little to no experience drawing from a holster and/or had a new holster. There was also a variety of clothing being worn, definitely some that could have gotten caught in a holster or trigger.

The point was made that if you look at your holster, you might miss the next bad guy sneaking up on you. I would prefer to emphasize checking your surroundings thoroughly before reholstering, rather than NOT looking at the holster and risking a negligent discharge.

Meanwhile there was no methodical step-by-step instruction of drawing and reholstering. Even when saying "don't look at your holster", there was no discussion of clearing your body with your other hand. Perhaps that was coming later; I left before the ammo came out because of this and some other safety violations I was seeing in the instructor's protocol. In fact, I should have perhaps left sooner. So I'm not regretting walking away, but I am still thinking about the reholstering issue. I was, btw, learning some "tips" from the class. The instructor is clearly a lot better shooter than I am. I was just not comfortable with what I saw as unnecessary risks.

I am wondering if any of you, particularly instructors, advocate teaching students to reholster without looking ?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't encourage anyone to remain in a class where they feel unsafe. But, for the life of me, I can't understand how these 4 Rules can trump what we personally witness. "I've read on the internet we should never sweep someone with a gun and there's some sweeping going on. Even though I personally witnessed that firearm be double checked so it's clear, this sinking feeling of danger is taking over. I'm leaving." If it's something that extreme why not take the instructor aside and say, "Hey, about that sweeping....." Perhaps even suggesting a better way would lead to feeling safer.

If it were just the instructor, I'd be more inclined to agree. I've taken a class where the instructor showed clear, had someone double check, then demonstrated. However that did not include pointing at someone. That is where yellow barrels or the like come in.

No way I'd have a class of newbies doing it and stick around. No way to keep track of every participant, and it just takes one guy to misunderstand, think you're prepping to go outside, and load up.

I fail to see an upside to this worth the risk, especially given easy and safe alternatives.

 

[bwframe]

Look/no look, see above. This comes down to what the instructor's personal beliefs are on the topic and the task at hand. There are instances where both could be beneficial but as you note, doing so in a brand noob training class probably isn't time well spent. Is it unsafe? You said the firearms were double checked to be clear. It would be a hard argument to prove pointing unloaded firearms at anything is unsafe. (And that gets us firmly back into the 4 Rules debate where people get shot with loaded guns they thought were unloaded.)

My question is why having a gun pointed at you that's been double checked to be clear makes you uncomfortable enough to leave the class, especially without saying something to the instructor? You note watching closely to make sure they were all clear but then somehow it made you nervous enough that you still left. Do you not trust your own eyes? Do guns somehow magically shoot with no ammo in them?

I don't encourage anyone to remain in a class where they feel unsafe. But, for the life of me, I can't understand how these 4 Rules can trump what we personally witness. "I've read on the internet we should never sweep someone with a gun and there's some sweeping going on. Even though I personally witnessed that firearm be double checked so it's clear, this sinking feeling of danger is taking over. I'm leaving." If it's something that extreme why not take the instructor aside and say, "Hey, about that sweeping....." Perhaps even suggesting a better way would lead to feeling safer.

Nobody wants to be "that guy" who stops the class and pulls the instructor to the side or asks the question "Why are we sweeping each other with guns? Isn't that a violation of the 4 Safety Rules?" but if it's important enough, maybe it's worth the time to do so.

.

 

[GIJEW]

Definitely not looking to pile on, just questioning myself about the look or no look practice. I am certain there are things I could learn from this person and that they have more skill than I do. Being a quality, safe instructor isn't just about skill though.

I was very conflicted when I left. Part of me was feeling silly and another part of me was feeling guilty about not saying anything to those with less experience than I have.




I believe that's the way all of my other classes have been handled. But today I started to wonder "has everyone else been telling us not to look and I somehow missed it?". That is the single significant reason why I posted the thread.

It all would have went better with me if there had been more instruction about the draw and reholster before emphasizing the "no look". (and/or if I hadn't already had the heebie-jeebies about guns coming out in the classroom for an exercise that IMO could have been done on the line)

I don't have anything new to add, just more support for your decision. Your points were all valid, including the one that being a skilled shooter doesn't make one a skilled instructor.

 

[Coach]

My question is why having a gun pointed at you that's been double checked to be clear makes you uncomfortable enough to leave the class, especially without saying something to the instructor? You note watching closely to make sure they were all clear but then somehow it made you nervous enough that you still left. Do you not trust your own eyes? Do guns somehow magically shoot with no ammo in them?

Because unloaded guns kill thousands of people in the country every single year. Because there are viable alternatives for unloaded guns for training and demonstrating, and they should be used.

Leaving such a class was the best way to make a point. Vote with your feet.

 

[Coach]

Ehhh, I wouldn't go quite that far. I've talked with enough folks with brand new holes in their legs that did so on the draw to say it can also be dangerous. Getting on the trigger real early, especially if doing so while seated in a car, is the usual cause. I agree it's less dangerous than reholstering, though.

We're at 62 AD/ND causing injury or death so far this year in the county (and likely more due to some pretty sketchy "robbery" scenarios to explain gun shots to the off hand with powder residue...). People can find a way to make putting a gun in a drawer dangerous.

Speaking strictly from my experience. I don't hesitate to say it. How often are you getting the straight story with the folks you are dealing with. How often are drugs, alcohol, and in breeding involved in what you are dealing with? More than are present in classes and matches.

A finger in the trigger guard while drawing is unsafe and silly, but may not result in a problem. A finger in the trigger guard while re-holstering is a disaster. Shirt tail or or other garment can be a disaster as well.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I'm with coach. Blue guns and yellow training barrels are relatively cheap. And some instructors already have SIRT pistols. Im only comfy around those three being pointed at me. And maybe airsoft if I've got on eyepro.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Speaking strictly from my experience. I don't hesitate to say it. How often are you getting the straight story with the folks you are dealing with. How often are drugs, alcohol, and in breeding involved in what you are dealing with? More than are present in classes and matches.

A finger in the trigger guard while drawing is unsafe and silly, but may not result in a problem. A finger in the trigger guard while re-holstering is a disaster. Shirt tail or or other garment can be a disaster as well.

It's generally under panic conditions, not admin handling or at the range. One fellow was being shot at, so he was in something of a hurry. He pulled, got on the trigger, and shot himself in the thigh on the way to bringing the gun up to the window to shoot at his opponent. I can't speak to inbreeding, but drugs or alcohol weren't a factor.

No holster carry and grabbing the gun improperly is another fairly common cause, but I'm assuming folks here are smart enough to use a holster. For those who use a holster, it *is* rare but happens. Injuries when drawing while seated or prone from being knocked down is more common to see than while standing up. Probably just because they are sweeping more of themselves on the draw stroke. A round that would have hit the dirt had they been standing hits their foot or thigh instead.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

..and since no discussion of shooting yourself on the draw is quite complete without Tex:

[video=youtube;zYvAxLX6OzE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE[/video]

 

[bwframe]

IMHO, dusty88 done exactly what should have been done. She is fortunate to have an understanding of safe firearms handling. Sadly it sounds as if the "class" continued on, teaching the exact WRONG things to new shooters.

Good for her for posting her experience here to expose that all "instructors" are not good instructors. There are a lot of folks out there calling themselves "firearms instructors," with a very poor or no understanding of safe firearms handling.

Students, please DO YOUR homework on your instructors and pass along this information to others to do the same.

---------------------------------

Ohio gun store owner accidentally killed by student during firearm-safety class

Gun safety instructor accidentally shoots student - CNN.com

Firearms instructor accidentally shoots California pastor during gun safety class

--------------------------------

How to Survive your CCW Class Without Being Shot

[video=youtube;N48bV2gKVQM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N48bV2gKVQM[/video]