The Real Costs of Electric Car Ownership - CNET

[indyblue]

Anyway, I don't get all the EV hate.

What I hate is being forced to buy a glorified golf cart that solves no actual problem as far as emissions or other pollution and is riddled with nanny tech that will be used to keep us all in check. Not to mention that nearly every EV has to look like something out of the Jetsons that a child must've designed - fugly. When the Tesla roadster came out using the Lotus platform I actually thought it might be cool and could probably enjoy a little EV sports car. They sould have continued with a beautiful car like that but instead we get butt ugly Teslas, BMW i3's, Nissan leafs, etc. Even the high end Audi EQ and Mercedes look bizarre. Do. Not. Want.

The vast amounts of volatile, toxic processes needed to mine and refine the lithium and other rare/heavy metal earths I believe far outweigh any advantages over ICE. And if we stopped extracting and refining oil, where will all the industrially important compounds like grease/oil lubricants, plastic etc. going to come from? Even an EV needs gear oil in the motors and plastic for body components and even paints.

 

[jamil]

What I hate is being forced to buy a glorified golf cart that solves no actual problem as far as emissions or other pollution and is riddled with nanny tech that will be used to keep us all in check.

1. You're not being forced. Yet. But I don't doubt that's coming. But, the political reality has nothing to do with the cars themselves. A bad policy does not make EV's bad cars. They can do that on their own.

2. That glorified golf cart puts you back in your seat for way less money than almost any ICE vehicle.

3. The glorified golf carts break even on emissions on average after 25K miles or so, which includes the fact that much of the electricity to charge EV's come from fossil sources.

4. Pretty much ALL cars built today have nanny **** in them. It's not a reason in itself to hate EVs.

Not to mention that nearly every EV has to look like something out of the Jetsons that a child must've designed - fugly. When the Tesla roadster came out using the Lotus platform I actually thought it might be cool and could probably enjoy a little EV sports car. They sould have continued with a beautiful car like that but instead we get butt ugly Teslas, BMW i3's, Nissan leafs, etc. Even the high end Audi EQ and Mercedes look bizarre. Do. Not. Want.

Agreed. Tesla's are ugly. Not all EV's are ugly though. I think the Hummer EV is pretty cool looking. But I would never spend that kind of money on a vehicle. Plus, leave it to GM to build a $120K turd. I've heard they're having lots of issues with those.

Tesla, by far, is the most advanced EV. Everyone is playing catchup. I'd like to tell Musk to make something cool, because he can. But if his idea of cool is that wedge shaped pickup truck, I think he's incapable of cool in that way.

The vast amounts of volatile, toxic processes needed to mine and refine the lithium and other rare/heavy metal earths I believe far outweigh any advantages over ICE. And if we stopped extracting and refining oil, where will all the industrially important compounds like grease/oil lubricants, plastic etc. going to come from? Even an EV needs gear oil in the motors and plastic for body components and even paints.

I don't think oil production will cease completely. Battery tech is improving. Tesla is working on a type of battery that might last 1M miles. It uses less of rare earth metals. Eventually I think battery tech might improve enough to make EVs more usable across the range of applications. Not there yet by a long shot.

And the biggest negative I see now is what to do about the spent batteries. Can it be cost effective enough to recycle? What does that economy even look like? It's a problem they need to figure out soon before there are heaps of old batteries laying around.

 

[KLB]

What I hate is being forced to buy a glorified golf cart that solves no actual problem as far as emissions or other pollution and is riddled with nanny tech that will be used to keep us all in check. Not to mention that nearly every EV has to look like something out of the Jetsons that a child must've designed - fugly. When the Tesla roadster came out using the Lotus platform I actually thought it might be cool and could probably enjoy a little EV sports car. They sould have continued with a beautiful car like that but instead we get butt ugly Teslas, BMW i3's, Nissan leafs, etc. Even the high end Audi EQ and Mercedes look bizarre. Do. Not. Want.

The vast amounts of volatile, toxic processes needed to mine and refine the lithium and other rare/heavy metal earths I believe far outweigh any advantages over ICE. And if we stopped extracting and refining oil, where will all the industrially important compounds like grease/oil lubricants, plastic etc. going to come from? Even an EV needs gear oil in the motors and plastic for body components and even paints.

I agree with you about the looks of a lot of them, especially Teslas. I really like the look of mine though.


I also do not like the cabin of Teslas. The new ones are run totally by the tablet in the center of the dash. No display for the driver, no buttons or knobs.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

My gut tells me, if the governments want peoples’ demand for EVs to go up, they need to do something to shock gas prices.

Electric Vehicle Demand Slumps 65% in a Year – The Daily Sceptic

Buyer interest in new electric cars has slumped by nearly two-thirds since the start of last year, new figures suggest, but Government is full of ideas to push the unwanted products on an unconvinced public.

dailysceptic.org

 

[avboiler11]

I had a 2023 Chevy Bolt as an Uber last week in a northern location still getting snow...15min ride but I was quite impressed with the car. Comfortable, nicely furnished for a non-luxury car, LOTS of legroom in the back seat, and while smooth I honestly didn't notice a ton of difference in road noise/comfort (perhaps due to tires on the car). It had a small cargo area, but its a subcompact car and a couple carry-on suitcases would have fit fine.

I'd not hesitate to get something like that as a daily runaround to supplement my Silverado, but let's be honest - that'd be a $30k second vehicle which is a luxury most people can't afford.

 

[KLB]

My gut tells me, if the governments want peoples’ demand for EVs to go up, they need to do something to shock gas prices.

Electric Vehicle Demand Slumps 65% in a Year – The Daily Sceptic

Buyer interest in new electric cars has slumped by nearly two-thirds since the start of last year, new figures suggest, but Government is full of ideas to push the unwanted products on an unconvinced public.

dailysceptic.org

Until prices are more affordable the demand will never be what they want it to be. With inflation having driven the cost of every damned thing way up, a lot of people won't be able to afford them even if they wanted one.

 

[MCgrease08]

One thing seems overlooked... natural gas is a product of oil drilling.
So, when we drill less, what is going to happen to the cost of natural gas used for heating?

Anyone?

The natural gas supply is now more renewable natural gas (RNG) than fossil natural gas, at least for transportation fuel. Last year 69% of the nat gas used for vehicles across the US was RNG. In California it's pretty much 100% RNG.

RNG comes from capturing methane from landfills, ag waste, wastewater treatment and other organic sources of decomposition. As demand for it goes up more and more investment is being made on the supply side. And because the methane used would otherwise be off gassed into the atmosphere, that factors into the carbon intensity (CI) score.

RNG is the only transportation fuel with a negative carbon intensity score. It's the "cleanest" source of vehicle fuel right now and it's not even close.

Admittedly, my knowledge of alt fuels is somewhat limited to the commercial vehicle sector, not home heating or passenger car, but it's what I do for my day job, so I follow this stuff pretty closely. It's pretty frustrating that the California Air Resources Board tracks all this stuff and puts out data showing that RNG has the lowest CI score, yet they ignore their own data and continue to push for BEVs.

Renewable Natural Gas Breaking Motor Fuel Usage Records – The Transport Project

ngvamerica.org

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Until prices are more affordable the demand will never be what they want it to be. With inflation having driven the cost of every damned thing way up, a lot of people won't be able to afford them even if they wanted one.

Yeah, that’s part of it. A big part is value. When/if people see an advantage, a value, in going EV, the demand will naturally rise. One example to illustrate this is smart phones. People don’t clamor for iPhones because they’re cheaper than flip phones. They pay $1000 or more because they see a value in them.

 

[NHT3]

And then there's this

https://news.yahoo.com/video-f-150-lightning-fire-174534701.html

 

[Leo]

This is a big country. I often make a 1050 mile trip from Indiana to Dallas. I do it in 15.5 hours in either of my present cars. An electric car is a 100 mile leash, and from the last road tests, and electric truck is a 50 mile leash. For all that freedom lost, we do not gain anything.

I understand that electric motors have full developed torque from start RPM. As long as a power supply can keep up, the motor will develop torque until the winding smokes. A fast zero to 60 out of my driveway does not matter to me, if I cannot get to the state line and back.

And I have not even addressed the cobalt, lithium, fire reactivity, and power grid prblems that I will not accept. That being said, I will stand shoulder to shoulder with a rifle to defend someones right to chose one, as long as I don't have to subsidize it.

 

[KLB]

This is a big country. I often make a 1050 mile trip from Indiana to Dallas. I do it in 15.5 hours in either of my present cars. An electric car is a 100 mile leash, and from the last road tests, and electric truck is a 50 mile leash. For all that freedom lost, we do not gain anything.

I understand that electric motors have full developed torque from start RPM. As long as a power supply can keep up, the motor will develop torque until the winding smokes. A fast zero to 60 out of my driveway does not matter to me, if I cannot get to the state line and back.

And I have not even addressed the cobalt, lithium, fire reactivity, and power grid prblems that I will not accept. That being said, I will stand shoulder to shoulder with a rifle to defend someones right to chose one, as long as I don't have to subsidize it.

It's more like 250 miles, not 100. Mine is low these days at 215 fully charged.

That said, they are definitely not something you want to drive if you want to drive long distances in a hurry. If you wanted a leisurely drive across the country, you could probably plan a route that would work.

 

[Leo]

Is not 250 akin to 125 there and 125 back, provided you can take a chance of coasting in fully depleted?

 

[KLB]

Is not 250 akin to 125 there and 125 back, provided you can take a chance of coasting in fully depleted?

Ah, you were talking about long distance travel, so that is not the connection I made.

If you don't recharge on the far end, then yep.

 

[smokingman]

EVs Fall Short of EPA Estimates by a Much Larger Margin Than Gas Cars in Our Real-World Highway Testing

Gas-powered cars often match or exceed EPA highway fuel economy numbers. A new paper using data from C/D's highway tests shows EVs are far less likely to do so.

www.caranddriver.com

A new paper published by SAE International uses Car and Driver's real-world highway test data to show that electric vehicles underperform on real-world efficiency and range relative to the EPA figures by a much greater margin than internal-combustion vehicles. While the latter typically meet or exceed the EPA-estimated highway fuel economy numbers, EVs tend to fall considerably short of the range number on the window sticker. The paper, written by Car and Driver's testing director, Dave VanderWerp, and Gregory Pannone, was presented this week at SAE International's annual WCX conference. It points to a need for revised testing and labeling standards for EVs moving forward.

"Basically we've taken a look at how vehicles perform relative to the values on the window sticker, looking at the difference between what the label says and what we actually see in our real-world highway test," explained VanderWerp. "We see a big difference in that gap between gas-powered vehicles and the performance of EVs

 

[JCSR]

 

[Ingomike]

View attachment 272165

Nope! Lacks the tow rating….

 

[JCSR]

Keep in mind this can happen with any car. I mean they blow up and catch on fire everyday.

Ford F-150 Lightning fire footage highlights a growing EV risk

Fires involving EV batteries can burn hotter and longer and require new techniques to extinguish, posing a growing challenge to first responders.

www.cnbc.com

 

[KLB]

Keep in mind this can happen with any car. I mean they blow up and catch on fire everyday.

Ford F-150 Lightning fire footage highlights a growing EV risk

Fires involving EV batteries can burn hotter and longer and require new techniques to extinguish, posing a growing challenge to first responders.

www.cnbc.com

Didn't we cover this already? They actually catch on fire less often than ICE cars.

 

[JCSR]

Didn't we cover this already? They actually catch on fire less often than ICE cars.

Do new ICE cars catch fire while still on the holding lot? I don't think so.

 

[Ingomike]

Do new ICE cars catch fire while still on the holding lot? I don't think so.

Yep, or burn to the ground with every fire. Or maybe burn for hours instead of minutes…