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  • SSGT Rock

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Feb 18, 2014
    4
    1
    Dallas
    I know we've been around this block a few times here but I ran across a link to this post and thought that it was one of the best written pieces I had read on the subject.

    The author expounds on many of the points that have been debated in several different threads here and across many other forums for years.

    Since this post captures so much and adds a bit that I don't recall even seeing here before, I will give it its own thread instead of burying it on page 10 of one of the existing threads.

    Long but very interesting read IMO.

    (source link) The Open Carry Argument



    :popcorn:

    ETA: If you didn't already, go back and click the BLUE link. It is well worth the additional reading.
    I read the belaboringly "Essay" in its entirety. The post as I saw it, did not contain any "blue ink" so if there was additional reading linked to it that in part or in whole dismisses my reply, I'm not aware of it.
    Secondly, my reply is in reference to the "Essay" not to any individual that easily takes affront to imagined slights.
    IMHO, this was a liberals view of open carry. It more perpetuates the "cowboy gunslinger" view with which liberals like to label the gun crowd. OC does not eliminate the possibility of a threat. It only ensures in the event of one, you'll be facing a better prepared criminal. Similar to the argument " make it foolproof, they'll make better fools".

    I state this on the basis that while an expert (Ayoob) was cited, he was cited in part but also dismissing or purposely omitting the majority of his writings on carry.
    The most pertinent parts that were ignored, IMO was his statements regarding, the most important parts of making the session to carry at all Mental Preparation and that Situational Awareness is the most effective form of self defense.
    In making this important decision, one must determine if they are prepared to put in the time to decide how and where they choose to exercise this right and how it will be reasonably viewed in various situations, practice, educate themselves on pertinent laws and stay current with them, and most importantly honestly assess if put in an defensive situation what they are actually prepared to do.
    He also touches on physical preparedness i.e. being fit enough to defend oneself sufficiently to the point of reaching a firearm.
    If you're fat, out of shape, shuffling instead of walking with a purpose,head down instead of up paying attention, in your own head instead of aware of your surroundings, on your phone, and you ear buds in you're a target regardless whether you CC or OC.
    BTW, stature does not equate to capable. Anyone who has ever experienced an altercation knows that. So much to the 5'2" v. 6'2" example. And yes it is noticeable.

    Most Importantly, there is Absolutely No Reference to Situational Awareness. One of Ayoob's primary tenants of self defense.
    The author's opinions indicate that OC is their primary source of deterrent. That is fundamentally wrong. SA is your first/bestmethod of self defense. That dismisses that OC is the only direct deterrent
    Point in case: This story will also punctuate why the statement " surprise is not a defensive tactic.
    That statement is undeniably WRONG.

    It absolutely can be used as a defensive tactic.
    In Italy, where I couldn't carry even of I were able to possess a firearm, I was placed in a defensive position.
    Walking back from my favorite pizza place near the hotel I stay at the night before headed to Malpensa to return home. The route takes me through a very sketchy area. My awareness has always been dialed up in this area. It is a natural response that everyone possesses if they pay attention.

    Near dusk, I noticed to young men approaching from the opposite direction.
    Surprise 1, I crossed the street which required them to do the same to intersect me. This caused them to have to change direction and instead of being abreast, they were in single file.
    As they neared me, the rear one angled to his right, that would place him behind me while the other attempted to get my attention asking for a cigarette.
    Surprise 2, I side stepped and turned placing both of them back to my front. They seemed to me to be disturbed by this, IMO.
    Surprise 3, I did not pull out a smoke from my pack. I reached for my pack with my left hand, opened it, and extended it at just farther than arms length for him to extract a cigarette requiring him to concentrate on that while keeping both in view.
    Surprise 3, He asked for a light. I tossed him my lighter still two arms length from him and his wingman slightly farther.
    I then waited and watched for them to disengage which they did when they realized I wasn't moving until they then, and I got my lighter back. They did not seem happy but went in their way.
    A possible threat was mitigated by awareness and surprise. The young men were taken off balance by my unexpected movements (surprise). Simple changes that removed some control of the situation. This also presented that I was aware and at some point prepared.
    This is part of Ayoob's teachings of not beginning a target.
    If you OC also consider a couple things:
    They know you're armed and where it's at. Were they to proceed with the threat, they know where to look for a reaction. Do you know where their weapon is? (Advantage criminal).
    Regardless of your skill OC or CC. You have to wait for the threat, or risk breaking the law. With CC, you can place you hand near, or possibly on, the weapon without telegraphing your intention and they are put in the position of not knowing exactly how prepared you are and without risking brandishing (Some Added advantage, victim).

    You defense does not begin at contact. It begins the second you perceive a threat, real or imagined. If you wait to the point of contact to prepare yourself, you're already a victim, armed or not.
    This wasn't a "Hollywood mugging" it was a typical situation where many people very easily could be distracted into a dangerous situation.
     
    Last edited:

    ImNoTech

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 14, 2023
    27
    3
    Fort Wayne
    I conceal carry more than I open carry. I think it more depends on the gun you’re carrying that day and the environment you will be in. I have noticed I do think about what others may think and try not to offend too many people. Maybe I’m apart of the problem lol
     

    DataGeek19

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 9, 2017
    190
    63
    Southern Indiana
    I personally CC but am not against others who OC. I actually enjoy seeing what kind of gun a person has. I’ve thought to myself, “he does look like a SW Shield person” or “what kind of extended mag is that”, or “that’s a cool leather basket weave”.

    I’m impressed when I see a petite young lady OCing a Glock 19 or even something larger. Even better is to see a midget little person open carrying. (Maybe we should have a little person with gun thread with pics). I digress…

    My pet peeve is when I see a weapon flopping around with or without a holster due to a loose waistband. Get a secure belt. That should be considered an essential piece of your equipment.

    AD952BBB-4379-4F54-B7C1-187DDB9D6B75.jpeg
     

    Mij

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    May 22, 2022
    5,867
    113
    In the corn and beans
    I personally CC but am not against others who OC. I actually enjoy seeing what kind of gun a person has. I’ve thought to myself, “he does look like a SW Shield person” or “what kind of extended mag is that”, or “that’s a cool leather basket weave”.

    I’m impressed when I see a petite young lady OCing a Glock 19 or even something larger. Even better is to see a midget little person open carrying. (Maybe we should have a little person with gun thread with pics). I digress…

    My pet peeve is when I see a weapon flopping around with or without a holster due to a loose waistband. Get a secure belt. That should be considered an essential piece of your equipment.

    View attachment 276557
    Pet peeve noted and registered. Nothing I hate more than seeing some jackalope wearing a gun in a uncle mikes 8 dollar plastic sock flopping around on his belt. Makes us all look like wannabes.JMO
     

    green46105

    Gun enthusiast, gun collector, lover of firearms
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 23, 2023
    31
    18
    greencastle indiana
    I know we've been around this block a few times here but I ran across a link to this post and thought that it was one of the best written pieces I had read on the subject.

    The author expounds on many of the points that have been debated in several different threads here and across many other forums for years.

    Since this post captures so much and adds a bit that I don't recall even seeing here before, I will give it its own thread instead of burying it on page 10 of one of the existing threads.

    Long but very interesting read IMO.

    (source link) The Open Carry Argument



    :popcorn:

    ETA: If you didn't already, go back and click the BLUE link. It is well worth the additional reading.
    A lot of good well thought out arguments for open carry. There are some points I would disagree with slightly though. Yes a normal sane person robbing a 7-11 would abort seeing a person with a gun. A person wanting to make a name for himself in his gang will shoot you. A person desperate for his next fix isnt thinking logically and is a big unknown.

    A mugger always attacks in a ambush so seeing your gun he might just hit you in the back of your head still stealing your items and also relieving you of your firearm.

    While always being vigilant is easier said then done. Yes when you open carry or concealed carry you must always have situational awareness we are but human and factors dull the senses. How tired you are after a long day at work. that interesting item you have been wanting and suddenly locate to buy, the beautiful opposite gender person who just walked by. These are things that can distract.

    Now that being said I am definitely not against anyone who wants to open carry. But in doing so you must train. You must train in retention along with your drawing and shooting skills. When that robber or mugger sees your firearm and gets their hand on it beore you do you must know how to retain possession of that firearm.

    A gun fight has the word fight in it for a reason, first and foremost it is fighting the firearm is just another tool such as your hands, a bat, a knife or other instruments you choose to fight with.

    I personally have found that i prefer OWB with a vest or other outer garment covering my firearm even when it is extremely hot outside.

    I really enjoyed your artical and believe it it is a well written thoughtfully put together acritical that is very informative.

    thank you for sharing,

    Greg
     

    EPeter213

    Expert
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 4, 2016
    1,128
    83
    Floyd/Harrison
    Welcome to INGO!

    It’s nice to see an articulate response instead of the frequent “if you don’t carry my way you are doing it wrong” responses seen in this thread.

    That being said, Your response is waaaay off base. I mean, how can you possibly post on INGO without mentioning bacon or Pineapple Upside down cake?

    Also: what is your opinion of pineapple on pizza? :stickpoke:
     
    Last edited:

    Vodnik4

    Aspiring Redneck
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 24, 2021
    330
    93
    Monroe
    So I carried for the first time yesterday!
    Mixed OC/CC, as the original holster for my CZ82 is the unwieldy leather monstrosity designed for Czech policemen, and my summer jacket doesn’t cover the bottom part of it.
    As someone described it here before, at first it feels like everyone is staring at you, but soon one realizes that nobody could care less. Lord bless the great state of Indiana and fine folks who inhabit it!

    My kids were surprised “Dad, are you going to carry guns now?”, then during outing to Sam’s Club I started pointing out all the guys OCing, and we had a conversation about good guy with a gun / bad guy with a gun.

    And if anyone has suggestions on a decent flatter looking holster for CZ82, I will happily take them.
     

    actaeon277

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Nov 20, 2011
    92,860
    113
    Merrillville
    So I carried for the first time yesterday!
    Mixed OC/CC, as the original holster for my CZ82 is the unwieldy leather monstrosity designed for Czech policemen, and my summer jacket doesn’t cover the bottom part of it.
    As someone described it here before, at first it feels like everyone is staring at you, but soon one realizes that nobody could care less. Lord bless the great state of Indiana and fine folks who inhabit it!

    My kids were surprised “Dad, are you going to carry guns now?”, then during outing to Sam’s Club I started pointing out all the guys OCing, and we had a conversation about good guy with a gun / bad guy with a gun.

    And if anyone has suggestions on a decent flatter looking holster for CZ82, I will happily take them.
    I don't know if they make them for a cz82, but I swear by Mitch Rosen.
    They are a bit pricey, but they're great leather holsters, and they custom make them for you.
     

    2A_Tom

    Crotchety old member!
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Sep 27, 2010
    25,979
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    NWI
     

    Vodnik4

    Aspiring Redneck
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 24, 2021
    330
    93
    Monroe
    I don't know if they make them for a cz82, but I swear by Mitch Rosen.
    They are a bit pricey, but they're great leather holsters, and they custom make them for you.
    Mitch Rosen makes some sweet looking leather, and the price for a custom piece is not THAT high. I will def give them a try!
     

    actaeon277

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
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    4   0   0
    Nov 20, 2011
    92,860
    113
    Merrillville
    Mitch Rosen makes some sweet looking leather, and the price for a custom piece is not THAT high. I will def give them a try!

    I use the 5JR with Thumb Break when I OC.
    I use the Workman when I conceal.
    When I changed my carry gun, I've bought those same holsters again.

    As with any holster, especially leather, check them for wear and tear.
    I haven't needed to replace mine yet, but still check them out. Don't want bad leather hitting a trigger while it's being holstered.

    When you call, they will ask you..
    which gun (make/model/caliber/barrel)
    which side of the body
    belt width (for the loopholes)
    leather coloring

    And the 'leather lightning' is recommended for break in.
     
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