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  • wtburnette

    WT(aF)
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    44   0   0
    Nov 11, 2013
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    With the coming political environment of top Dems calling for “lists of Trump supporters” and increased gun control along with encouragement of “neighbor watching neighbor” (ie snitches), I wonder if the OC/CC considerations will shift. OC might make one be singled out not only for a go/no go decision on a robbers part, but also for a political motivation. I can foresee some triggered (no pun intended) anti-gun nut being more of a problem that any potential thief.

    Let's hope not but probably.

    Yup.
    Quite a few.

    As sad as that is.

    BTW, Tom, I love your JCR acronym and will have to "borrow" it... :thumbsup:
     

    KLB

    Grandmaster
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    5   0   0
    Sep 12, 2011
    23,011
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    Porter County
    I wonder if the OC/CC considerations will shift. OC might make one be singled out not only for a go/no go decision on a robbers part, but also for a political motivation. I can foresee some triggered (no pun intended) anti-gun nut being more of a problem that any potential thief.
    This has been a problem in some areas for a while now. It won't have any weight when I determine whether I am going to OC/CC.
     

    foszoe

    Grandmaster
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    24   0   0
    Jun 2, 2011
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    With the coming political environment of top Dems calling for “lists of Trump supporters” and increased gun control along with encouragement of “neighbor watching neighbor” (ie snitches), I wonder if the OC/CC considerations will shift. OC might make one be singled out not only for a go/no go decision on a robbers part, but also for a political motivation. I can foresee some triggered (no pun intended) anti-gun nut being more of a problem that any potential thief.
    I know its a fairly popular opinion to be the guy in the shadows.

    My opinions are not all that popular sometimes.

    I WISH everyone would open carry, put NRA stickers on their cars, do EVERYTHING possible to let everyone know they own and or carry a gun in this current political climate WHENEVER possible. Let your friends, family, neighbors, coworkers, and the stranger on the street KNOW we aren't some faceless threat, we ARE the people next door. The person that helps fix a flat tire. etc. It's not gonna happen but I can wish.
     

    2A_Tom

    Crotchety old member!
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    3   0   0
    Sep 27, 2010
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    JCR
    Just Carry Responsibly.

    • Just: In any and all cases.
    • Carry: Everywhere, every day.
    • Responsibly: Get training, practice, never draw unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary.
    More on responsibility:
    • Know the rules of gun Safety and practice them at all times. (I don't even care if you are a 3 or 4 rule guy)
    • Practice Situational Awareness.
    • Walk away from sketchy situations.
    • Never get in an altercation.
    Feel free to add other principles pertaining to responsibility that I may have overlooked.

    ETA,

    After reading my post, I realized that some may consider JC redundant. So, here is a revised version.

    CR
    Carry Responsibly.

    • Carry: Everywhere, every day.
    • Responsibly: Get training, practice, never draw unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary.
    More on responsibility:
    • Know the rules of gun Safety and practice them at all times. (I don't even care if you are a 3 or 4 rule guy)
    • Practice Situational Awareness.
    • Walk away from sketchy situations.
    • Never get in an altercation.
    Feel free to add other principles pertaining to responsibility that I may have overlooked.
     
    Last edited:

    MCgrease08

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    37   0   0
    Mar 14, 2013
    14,374
    149
    Earth
    - Be polite.
    - Don't initiate conflict or engage in ego battles.
    - Carry a less lethal tool that falls somewhere between a firearm and a hard look. Because lethal force isn't always called for.
    - Practice enough that you have a sub two second draw to first shot.
    - Have a baseline understanding of grappling skills. You want the first time you get into a wrestling match over a gun to be on the mats, not in the real world.
    - Be able to take a punch or punches. Have the emotional fitness to stay in the fight.
    - Don't try and draw from the drop, but wait for your turn. There is almost an opportunity for a counter ambush if you wait for it. But when it comes you need to act.
     
    Last edited:

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
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    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    - Be polite.
    - Don't initiate conflict or engage in ego battles.
    - Carry a less lethal tool that falls somewhere between a firearm and a hard look. Because lethal force isn't always called for.
    - Practice enough that you have a sub two second draw to first shot.
    - Have a baseline understanding of grappling skills. You want the first time you get into a wrestling match over a gun to be on the mats, not in the real world.
    - Be able to take a lunch or punches. Have the emotional fitness to stay in the fight.
    - Don't try and draw from the drop, but wait for your turn. There is almost an opportunity for a counter ambush if you wait for it. But when it comes you need to act.
    "BINGO"
     

    gregr

    Master
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    0   0   0
    Jan 1, 2016
    4,300
    113
    West-Central
    Unfortunately, I`m likely NOT going to actually read 194 pages of posts on this subject, even though I find it to be a fascinating one. Just like the author, I carry so that I may prevent me becoming a victim of crime, most especially violent crime. Just like the author, my goal is to BOTH, NOT be a crime victim, while simultaneously, NOT ever shooting anyone, much less killing someone. Even though, morally, I know the Lord allows me to defend myself, my fear would be the legal system.
    I wish I had the nerve to open carry much more often, or maybe ALL the time. The thing I struggle with is, I firmly believe that open carry makes other people nervous, and if I feel others are nervous, I then feel nervous and conspicuous. I admire those who have zero qualms carrying openly, and I`d love to become more like them. I want to try to work on becoming comfortable carrying openly.
    Here is where I have the issue with this author, and it may not really be with the author, since he only quoted Ayoob, but when the author quotes him and says this: Ayoob hits on this in his book, In the Gravest Extreme. He suggests tossing the robber a small wad of cash and moving off, even if you could prevail with a weapon. I have a real problem with this line of (un)-thinking. As much as I desperately want to get through my life, both, never being a victim of crime, and, NEVER shooting anyone, I believe we who carry have a responsibility, and I believe Cooper summed it up succinctly when he wrote: "

    The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim. If a felon attacks you and lives, he will reasonably conclude that he can do it again. By submitting to him, you not only imperil your own life, but you jeopardize the lives of others-Jeff Cooper
     

    wcd

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 2, 2011
    6,274
    113
    Off the Grid In Tennessee
    - Be polite.
    - Don't initiate conflict or engage in ego battles.
    - Carry a less lethal tool that falls somewhere between a firearm and a hard look. Because lethal force isn't always called for.
    - Practice enough that you have a sub two second draw to first shot.
    - Have a baseline understanding of grappling skills. You want the first time you get into a wrestling match over a gun to be on the mats, not in the real world.
    - Be able to take a punch or punches. Have the emotional fitness to stay in the fight.
    - Don't try and draw from the drop, but wait for your turn. There is almost an opportunity for a counter ambush if you wait for it. But when it comes you need to act.
    I might add a 1k lumen flash light has come in very handy more than a few times. Both as an aid to assisting someone, two yeah I think I am going to rethink my choices here. While not a nice thing to do to someone far better to address the issue in the least confrontational way possible.
     

    gregr

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 1, 2016
    4,300
    113
    West-Central
    JCR
    Just Carry Responsibly.

    • Just: In any and all cases.
    • Carry: Everywhere, every day.
    • Responsibly: Get training, practice, never draw unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary.
    More on responsibility:
    • Know the rules of gun Safety and practice them at all times. (I don't even care if you are a 3 or 4 rule guy)
    • Practice Situational Awareness.
    • Walk away from sketchy situations.
    • Never get in an altercation.
    Feel free to add other principles pertaining to responsibility that I may have overlooked.

    ETA,

    After reading my post, I realized that some may consider JC redundant. So, here is a revised version.

    CR
    Carry Responsibly.

    • Carry: Everywhere, every day.
    • Responsibly: Get training, practice, never draw unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary.
    More on responsibility:
    • Know the rules of gun Safety and practice them at all times. (I don't even care if you are a 3 or 4 rule guy)
    • Practice Situational Awareness.
    • Walk away from sketchy situations.
    • Never get in an altercation.
    Feel free to add other principles pertaining to responsibility that I may have overlooked.
    LEARN the states rules of engagement. KNOW EXACTLY what situations allow the use of lethal force. I don`t know that anyone really understands all of this clearly. I have a good idea, but I know I don`t know everything to do with everything that makes the use of lethal force justified. What makes the use of lethal force justified ARE the rules of engagement, just as if you are at war. Obviously, as has been said, the ONLY gunfight you win is the gunfight you`re never involved in. Yet, there are some situations in which, lethal force is not only "ok", but obligatory. Indiana`s legal requirements for the legal use of lethal force ought to be discussed in GREAT detail, until there is absolutely zero ambiguity whatsoever.
     

    2A_Tom

    Crotchety old member!
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    3   0   0
    Sep 27, 2010
    25,979
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    NWI
    LEARN the states rules of engagement. KNOW EXACTLY what situations allow the use of lethal force. I don`t know that anyone really understands all of this clearly. I have a good idea, but I know I don`t know everything to do with everything that makes the use of lethal force justified. What makes the use of lethal force justified ARE the rules of engagement, just as if you are at war. Obviously, as has been said, the ONLY gunfight you win is the gunfight you`re never involved in. Yet, there are some situations in which, lethal force is not only "ok", but obligatory. Indiana`s legal requirements for the legal use of lethal force ought to be discussed in GREAT detail, until there is absolutely zero ambiguity whatsoever.
    This is one that is very important and I hate that I did not think of it.

    Back when I first started carrying openly, I had several interactions with Police in NWI. My knowledge of IC p***** them off.

    Aston your point about making people nervous, I have run into very few instances of that in the 10+ years I have OCed.

    I did notice that two young men with tear drop tats could not take their eyes off it the other day. I was solid Orange and will be whenever my new neighbors are close by. I never let on that my condition was heightened.
     
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    wcd

    Grandmaster
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    0   0   0
    Dec 2, 2011
    6,274
    113
    Off the Grid In Tennessee
    LEARN the states rules of engagement. KNOW EXACTLY what situations allow the use of lethal force. I don`t know that anyone really understands all of this clearly. I have a good idea, but I know I don`t know everything to do with everything that makes the use of lethal force justified. What makes the use of lethal force justified ARE the rules of engagement, just as if you are at war. Obviously, as has been said, the ONLY gunfight you win is the gunfight you`re never involved in. Yet, there are some situations in which, lethal force is not only "ok", but obligatory. Indiana`s legal requirements for the legal use of lethal force ought to be discussed in GREAT detail, until there is absolutely zero ambiguity whatsoever.
    I think when someone draws you into a situation things will become a whole new reality. How does that go everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

    most importantly will be the facts and how others will see them.
     

    gregr

    Master
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    0   0   0
    Jan 1, 2016
    4,300
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    West-Central
    I think when someone draws you into a situation things will become a whole new reality. How does that go everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

    most importantly will be the facts and how others will see them.
    I guess I wouldn`t see a lethal force situation as a thing any of us would be "drawn into"...maybe it`s just semantics, but, use of lethal force would be, I would expect, the very last thing any of us would want to be involved in. It would be a very last resort deal. It would be a situation where we`d either have no way out of, and/or, a situation where we`d feel compelled to get involved in, in order to try to save lives. To say that we`d be "drawn into" it makes it sound as if we`d willingly be participants, and I think that`s the LAST thing we`d want to be a part of.
     

    wcd

    Grandmaster
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    0   0   0
    Dec 2, 2011
    6,274
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    Off the Grid In Tennessee
    Was going to put something in purple, but I will refrain. (Not a jab at you by any means)

    In my opinion despite being an unwilling participant in something such as a robbery, car jacking, home invasion, the list goes on. You were drawn Into it and did not contribute or escalate the situation.

    One is drawn into the situation by the unwelcome actions of others. You are forced to take action ie attempt to remove yourself from the unwelcome interaction, hide depending on the situation, and of course making the decision to protect yourself by which ever appropriate means necessary. Not everyone will need to use lethal force to stop a threat.

    The best analogy I can offer is that of a flash flood there was no warning, and you were drawn into the flood waters, like it or not you are now involved in something you would rather not be and inaction is not an option.
     

    2A_Tom

    Crotchety old member!
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    3   0   0
    Sep 27, 2010
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    The open or conceal discussion will NEVER be settled because it always becomes a pi$$ing contest. How about just getting this covered before considering leaving the house with a loaded gun.

    Carry Responsibly.

    • Responsibly: Get training, practice, never draw unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary.
    I've seen that somewhere before I think. :oldwise:
     

    chipbennett

    Grandmaster
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    0   0   0
    Oct 18, 2014
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    Avon
    This is one that is very important and I hate that I did not think of it.

    Back when I first started carrying openly, I had several interactions with Police in NWI. My knowledge of IC p***** them off.

    Aston your point about making people nervous, I have run into very few instances of that in the 10+ years I have OCed.

    I did notice that two young men with tear drop tats could not take their eyes off it the other day. I was solid Orange and will be whenever my new neighbors are close by. I never let on that my condition was heightened.
    Here in Indiana, avail yourself of Guy Relford's 4-hour, $50 "Basics of Indiana Gun Law" course. Worth every penny, and then some.
     

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