The case for the 1911

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  • DadSmith

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    "While it's increasingly fashionable to mock the 1911 as an outdated and unreliable design, there's a solid argument for the modern 1911 as a law enforcement duty pistol."

    Found this to be an interesting article for the 1911 as the duty pistol for law enforcement agencies.
     

    Dean C.

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    Personally and this is coming from a shooter that loves 1911, 99% of cops have no business running 1911's IMHO. They simply do not spend enough time with their firearms to be able to properly maintain and keep them running.

    They need a pistol for the lowest common denominator and that's why 60%~ of all PD's in America use Glocks (that and they are WAY cheaper). Now issuing them to more highly trained units that can properly use them makes sense to me , IE US Marshals issuing 2011's to their SOG team.
     

    Ark

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    Point one, reliability - Glock exists. No 1911 has ever or will ever run with Glock reliability numbers.

    Point two, safety - Author is listing features that get people killed in combat situations.

    Point three, concealability - Utterly irrelevant to duty use and laughable due to the weight of the 1911 platform.

    Point four, ergos - Just buy a Walther. External safety position or functionality is irrelevant now. Plenty of modern duty guns handle as well or better.

    Point five, adaptability - Glock exists. Interchangeable backstraps exist on guns that aren't the 1911. 1911 parts often have to be custom fitted. Still very little optics support for the 1911 platform.

    Point six, disassembly - Lmao who freakin cares?

    Point seven, aftermarket - See point five.

    Point eight, again with the safety - If a crook takes your weapon away and it can't fire because the safety is on, that means you couldn't figure it out in time, either. Stupid point.

    Point nine, accuracy - No cops shoot well enough for this to matter. But they do need capacity...which the 1911 offers at *half* or less of modern 9mms.

    Point ten, yet again with the stupid safety - I don't need a safety lever on my sidearm to figure out how one works on a rifle.

    The author is not a clown, he is the entire circus. Every point is outright dumb or counterfactual, or is rooted in the "hardware solution to a software issue" fallacy. Some points simply repeat. Other issues, like extreme cost, low capacity, and ammunition shortcomings, are left out altogether.

    Just give your officers a Gen 5 G17, a Surefire light, and a Safariland duty holster.
     

    Steel and wood

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    Point one, reliability - Glock exists. No 1911 has ever or will ever run with Glock reliability numbers.

    Point two, safety - Author is listing features that get people killed in combat situations.

    Point three, concealability - Utterly irrelevant to duty use and laughable due to the weight of the 1911 platform.

    Point four, ergos - Just buy a Walther. External safety position or functionality is irrelevant now. Plenty of modern duty guns handle as well or better.

    Point five, adaptability - Glock exists. Interchangeable backstraps exist on guns that aren't the 1911. 1911 parts often have to be custom fitted. Still very little optics support for the 1911 platform.

    Point six, disassembly - Lmao who freakin cares?

    Point seven, aftermarket - See point five.

    Point eight, again with the safety - If a crook takes your weapon away and it can't fire because the safety is on, that means you couldn't figure it out in time, either. Stupid point.

    Point nine, accuracy - No cops shoot well enough for this to matter. But they do need capacity...which the 1911 offers at *half* or less of modern 9mms.

    Point ten, yet again with the stupid safety - I don't need a safety lever on my sidearm to figure out how one works on a rifle.

    The author is not a clown, he is the entire circus. Every point is outright dumb or counterfactual, or is rooted in the "hardware solution to a software issue" fallacy. Some points simply repeat. Other issues, like extreme cost, low capacity, and ammunition shortcomings, are left out altogether.

    Just give your officers a Gen 5 G17, a Surefire light, and a Safariland duty holster.
    I am all about everything 1911. But your points are dead on about a duty gun.
     

    Ark

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    I am all about everything 1911. But your points are dead on about a duty gun.
    I also love the crap out of a 1911. I'd even carry a 2011 as a duty gun...if I had about $3,500 laying around to get one, get it set up, get all my accoutrements, and test it thoroughly with duty ammo.

    But the G17 Gen 5 exists, and Federal HST/Speer Gold Dot exist. The perfect mass purchase, mass issue duty gun and duty ammo already exists. You have to have something to justify deviation from the default and the 1911 doesn't bring anything to the table in any category except emotion...which doesn't belong in the discussion.
     

    Amishman44

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    I am all about everything 1911. But your points are dead on about a duty gun.
    I concur about the 1911...can't find a more accurate or fun firearm to shoot...accuracy is second to no one and reliability is fantastic!
    That being said, the Glock platform was developed to compete against platforms other than the 1911, that provided increased capacity, simplification of use, increased safety measures innate to the platform, etc.
    I can see the 1911 platform imbedded with SWAT and other tactical units, those who train specifically for specialized duties, but to issue a 1911 to a rookie, some of whom have never handled a firearm prior to joining a law enforcement organization...probably not a good idea!
     

    KG1

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    Love me some 1911. Not seeing it though for wide spread duty use.

    Maybe in rural settings it’s ok.
     

    flatlander

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    I also love the crap out of a 1911. I'd even carry a 2011 as a duty gun...if I had about $3,500 laying around to get one, get it set up, get all my accoutrements, and test it thoroughly with duty ammo.

    But the G17 Gen 5 exists, and Federal HST/Speer Gold Dot exist. The perfect mass purchase, mass issue duty gun and duty ammo already exists. You have to have something to justify deviation from the default and the 1911 doesn't bring anything to the table in any category except emotion...which doesn't belong in the discussion.
    Trying to remember when I had the additional thumb and grip safety on my Glocks.
    Redundant safeties have saved lives when the mutts didn't know it was on.
    Trigger is better
    Grip angle is better
    Accuracy is better

    Just off the top of my head. These are not emotions but facts in my opinion.
     
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    Ark

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    Trying to remember when I had the additional thumb and grip safety on my Glocks.
    Redundant safeties have saved lives when the mutts didn't know it was on.
    Trigger is better
    Grip angle is better
    Accuracy is better

    Just off the top of my head. These are not emotions but facts in my opinion.
    Trigger is definitely better. It's also not particularly relevant for duty guns. You can't have superlight competition triggers on work guns, and it only has to be light enough not to be an active hindrance to use and accuracy.

    There are plenty of Glock analogs with a straighter grip angle. I don't think either particularly inhibits a given shooter.

    Again, accuracy doesn't really matter, virtually no police officers shoot well enough to be limited by the mechanical accuracy of a Glock.

    These are all very marginal benefits, compared to the platform's massive drawbacks.
     

    Leo

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    With no disrespect at all, I always consider Glock and Glock like pistols as an appliance that shoots. One job, just do it without any fuss.

    I have been owning, shooting and competing with the 1911 on and off for 50 years. I consider it so much more than an appliance, and am willing to pay the extra for those tangible and intangible features.

    Same with cars. Some are appliances for transportation. Some are sports cars that give more but require more from the operator and the mechanic.
     

    DadSmith

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    I think it has to do with costs more than anything else. Some departments were able to afford Sig P200 series which is a lot more than a $350 Glock which is what I think these big departments buy them for in large quantities. It's more of a factor of cost to them. Then they got what was the most reliable firearm at the cheapest cost wise. Some actually had the extra money for a Sig. Like stated above some special police units still use 1911 platform.



    Another article on 1911 duty use.


    This article confirms it takes money and a lot of training to operate a 1911. Something some say most police departments do not have is money, and officer training for it which also cost more. So I think it's about cost more than anything.
     
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    LtScott14

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    I feel kinda "dated" when I think of days when our issued weapons were called Service Revolvers". Yep, they fired, hit where aimed, minimum maintenance. We even had class 3 Safariland leather holsters.

    We upped to Glock22s. Oh man, what a difference! Aimed, fired, easy to clean, and carried a lot of backup from 6 to 15 rounds!

    Couple guys got Glock21s. Kinda bulky, but it works.

    Chief carried a Colt Commander 1911.
    Chief had over 30 years experience, knew the Colt inside out. Good marksmanship too.
    Officers fumbled with getting slide off of Glocks, worried about how to install the RSA,
    Marksmanship was okay, but not stellar. No ADs ever occured. Thank goodness!

    Sometimes, I wish for my revolver days to return, it's on nightstand duty.
    Glock 19 replaced it since 2001.
    I like my 1911 too. No reservations about carrying it as a CCW. G19 is lighter though.
    Good luck in your choices.
     

    IT_Guy

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    I carried a 1911 for quite a few years and used one in a few training classes. Ultimately, I ended up moving to a modern polymer pistol as they ticked all the needs I had.

    I think a 1911 does still have a place for a user that is will to accept some of the nuances.
     
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