The case for the 1911

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  • Ark

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    So now we go from 1911, Glock, Springfield, Sig, and S&W to being totally disarmed.

    The statistics are to show that the majority of shootings never get past 7 rds. Now how often are police in a shootout like the North Hollywood shootout statistically?
    So the ones who get the unlucky straw should just accept being outgunned and dying? By that logic we never should have moved away from DA revolvers.
     

    churchmouse

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    Point one, reliability - Glock exists. No 1911 has ever or will ever run with Glock reliability numbers.

    Point two, safety - Author is listing features that get people killed in combat situations.

    Point three, concealability - Utterly irrelevant to duty use and laughable due to the weight of the 1911 platform.

    Point four, ergos - Just buy a Walther. External safety position or functionality is irrelevant now. Plenty of modern duty guns handle as well or better.

    Point five, adaptability - Glock exists. Interchangeable backstraps exist on guns that aren't the 1911. 1911 parts often have to be custom fitted. Still very little optics support for the 1911 platform.

    Point six, disassembly - Lmao who freakin cares?

    Point seven, aftermarket - See point five.

    Point eight, again with the safety - If a crook takes your weapon away and it can't fire because the safety is on, that means you couldn't figure it out in time, either. Stupid point.

    Point nine, accuracy - No cops shoot well enough for this to matter. But they do need capacity...which the 1911 offers at *half* or less of modern 9mms.

    Point ten, yet again with the stupid safety - I don't need a safety lever on my sidearm to figure out how one works on a rifle.

    The author is not a clown, he is the entire circus. Every point is outright dumb or counterfactual, or is rooted in the "hardware solution to a software issue" fallacy. Some points simply repeat. Other issues, like extreme cost, low capacity, and ammunition shortcomings, are left out altogether.

    Just give your officers a Gen 5 G17, a Surefire light, and a Safariland duty holster.
    I dont think I like you any more.....:p
     

    DadSmith

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    So the ones who get the unlucky straw should just accept being outgunned and dying? By that logic we never should have moved away from DA revolvers.
    The Hollywood shootout they were all out gunned until swat got there with 7.62x51mm and 5.56mm. So unless patrol cars all have AR-10 with AP rds they will still be out gunned in the North Hollywood situation. So let's get back to everyday situations that doesn't require an army to stop.
     

    churchmouse

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    It is really a wonder that we survived all those years before the Glock came out.
    Yeah I wonder how both my uncles served full in combat with 1911's and used them a lot in situations that were life or death in the truest sense. Both would testify that their sidearms never failed them in the heat of it.
    I have one of those pistols in my safety deposit box. It is cherished beyond my ability to put to words. It was made in 1942 and has served. Extensively.
    I learned to shoot semi-auto with that gun. I was 12. I ran the living crap out of that gun over the years.

    Now, if I spent 10% of the time belittling Tupperware as you stooges spend beating on my favorite and go to EDC side arm Well...........:dunno:

    Pick your poison. I have picked mine and trust that it will serve me well.

    Be safe and shoot what ever you pick. Shoot it well.
     

    Ark

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    The Hollywood shootout they were all out gunned until swat got there with 7.62x51mm and 5.56mm. So unless patrol cars all have AR-10 with AP rds they will still be out gunned in the North Hollywood situation. So let's get back to everyday situations that doesn't require an army to stop.
    I just don't see the appeal in giving your people subpar equipment to defend their lives with on the rational that they will probably only need X amount of self defense and we don't really care what happens if X is exceeded. Hoping for the best or hoping the bad thing won't happen is not a legitimate risk management strategy.
     

    Route 45

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    The Hollywood shootout they were all out gunned until swat got there with 7.62x51mm and 5.56mm. So unless patrol cars all have AR-10 with AP rds they will still be out gunned in the North Hollywood situation. So let's get back to everyday situations that doesn't require an army to stop.
    There is no such thing as an "everyday situation" in police work. There is absolutely nothing to recommend the 1911 as a police duty weapon. Nothing. Period. Hell, 1911s weren't even that common in police holsters back before modern striker fired pistols. There are hundreds of police action shootings that took more than "6 or 7 rounds" to get the job done, regardless of caliber. More capacity is better. Period. No one who has ever survived a lethal force encounter wished that they had less ammo during the fight. Statistics? GTFO with that nonsense. It's always better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Common sense > Statistics.
     
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    DadSmith

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    I just don't see the appeal in giving your people subpar equipment to defend their lives with on the rational that they will probably only need X amount of self defense and we don't really care what happens if X is exceeded. Hoping for the best or hoping the bad thing won't happen is not a legitimate risk management strategy.
    So a Wilson Combat, Pilot Mountain, Springfield, Sig, Smith and Wesson etc 1911's are subpar firearms compared to Glock?
     

    DadSmith

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    There is no such thing as an "everyday situation" in police work. There is absolutely nothing to recommend the 1911 as a police duty weapon. Nothing. Period. Hell, 1911s weren't even that common in police holsters back before modern striker fired pistols. There are hundreds of police action shootings that took more than "6 or 7 rounds" to get the job done, regardless of caliber. More capacity is better. Period. No one who has ever survived a lethal force encounter wished that they had less ammo during the fight. Statistics? GTFO with that nonsense. It's always better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Common sense > Statistics.
    So how many shootouts have you been in that required a small army to stop 2 bad guys? How many times have you had to fire on a bad guy and how many rds did it take? There is a thing called reloading.
     

    Route 45

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    So how many shootouts have you been in that required a small army to stop 2 bad guys? How many times have you has to fire on a bad guy and how many rds did it take?
    None where I've had to pull the trigger myself, but I've seen the immediate results of a few that would run a 1911 dry in short order. Jake Laird and Jason Baker come to mind.

    Your turn, hero.
     

    DadSmith

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    For police work? Absolutely.

    None where I've had to pull the trigger myself, but I've seen the immediate results of a few that would run a 1911 dry in short order. Jake Laird and Jason Baker come to mind.

    Your turn, hero.
    Don't you carry extra mags? If you miss or don't hit a vital spot 17rds what makes you think another 17 will make a difference?

    IIRC Laird didn't get a shot off he got killed exiting his car.
     

    DadSmith

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    Yeah, that's tactically sound. Mag changes every few rounds. No way that could give the other guy an advantage.

    And for what?
    Officer Koe stopped Anderson with a few shots one hit him it the head which I would think is what killed him. Koe was the only one to fire his weapon. He was wounded and still returned effective fire. He never got close to emptying his magazine.
     

    DadSmith

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    None where I've had to pull the trigger myself, but I've seen the immediate results of a few that would run a 1911 dry in short order. Jake Laird and Jason Baker come to mind.

    Your turn, hero.
    Both the situations of both the officers you mentioned never fired a shot or got a chance to. So the capacity of their sidearm is irrelevant. I'm not belittling their sacrifice just pointing out they never fired their firearms at those that killed them.
     

    churchmouse

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    None where I've had to pull the trigger myself, but I've seen the immediate results of a few that would run a 1911 dry in short order. Jake Laird and Jason Baker come to mind.

    Your turn, hero.
    Know I am reading every word In This thread.
    your turn “Hero”

    make your point save the snark. This can be discussed in a civil manner.
     

    Jaybird1980

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    The Hollywood shootout they were all out gunned until swat got there with 7.62x51mm and 5.56mm. So unless patrol cars all have AR-10 with AP rds they will still be out gunned in the North Hollywood situation. So let's get back to everyday situations that doesn't require an army to stop.
    Didn't some officers go to a shop and get some rifles?
    Another case to have patrol rifles in the squad.

    i don't think the 1911 will ever be the main choice for Officers ever again.
    COST, Capacity,weight,ease of training new recruits, ease of repair in the armory, less number of parts to stock all give the plastic fantastic an advantage.


    Sure the 1911 is a great pistol. But IMO officers are the ones more likely to be the ones who encounter the times when the extra bullets are needed. A G17 with 2 mags on the belt equals 51rds without the +1, the 1911 with 5 mags on the belt is still 2 round short even with +1 the mag. I know which one I would want to help me get to that rifle.
     

    DadSmith

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    Didn't some officers go to a shop and get some rifles?
    Another case to have patrol rifles in the squad.

    i don't think the 1911 will ever be the main choice for Officers ever again.
    COST, Capacity,weight,ease of training new recruits, ease of repair in the armory, less number of parts to stock all give the plastic fantastic an advantage.


    Sure the 1911 is a great pistol. But IMO officers are the ones more likely to be the ones who encounter the times when the extra bullets are needed. A G17 with 2 mags on the belt equals 51rds without the +1, the 1911 with 5 mags on the belt is still 2 round short even with +1 the mag. I know which one I would want to help me get to that rifle.
    An officers sidearm is their main "combat" weapon it is what is used mostly because it is the quickest to get too. How many times has an officer shot 50rds of sidearm ammunition at a bad guy or guys? For that matter how many have fired 9 rds?
     

    DadSmith

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    Not many depts are going to be able to afford equipping the officers with those choices.
    Exactly but we have people say those choices are subpar compared to a $350 (or less depending on the deal Glock made that department) Glock duty pistol.

    Up thread we discussed that 1911's were to expensive and Glock makes such good deals most departments cannot pass up.
     
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