Target selection for self-defense training.

[jlw]

That looks suspicously like a guy torn on the results of the target. On one hand happy he was one of two people (along with the fabulous Heather Reeves) to pass this drill, but on the other hand unhappy that he dropped a round out of the 3X3 box. Targets matter.

Yup, and if shooting 8” circles one can convince themselves that a 4” miss was a hit.

 

[Jackson]

After taking Aaron Cowans class last year I purchased a bunch of his preferred targets and like them.
But…in preparing for the Gabe White class last week I had been practicing his drills on the Sage target, and Gabe’s standard for a headshot is a 4” circle. Practicing on a 7 or 8” circle really hindered me when I got to class. I was not nearly as good as I thought I was, at least by Gabe’s standards.

@jwamplerusa were you at Sage last year?

I think the appropriate standard for a head shot should probably be a 3" circle or maybe even 2". The scull is round and you want to hit it pretty straight or in one of the small soft spots to get high-probability results. The little bits in the middle you're really trying to disrupt are pretty small.

I'd say the same about highly effective torso shots. The maybe a 4" - 6" circle there if you want to be precise.

 

[Jackson]

In the past I have gone to some effort to use anatomically correct targets. I posted some threads about it.

Working with More Realistic Targets

Today at the range we decided to play with some more realistic looking targets and some 3D targets. Today we were specifically playing with head shots. We plan to look for some body targets as well. I went down to Hobby Lobby and bought a couple of these: The male head was $10.00. The...

www.indianagunowners.com

Working with More Realistic Targets - Session 2

Following the range session I wrote about in this thread: https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/tactics_and_training/215177-working_with_more_realistic_targets.html , we decided to see if we could put together an easy-to-assemble moving target set-up. The basic criteria were following: 1...

www.indianagunowners.com

I do think practicing with photo-realistic targets, targets with anatomically correct shapes, 3d shapes, shirts on targets, etc is a good training method. I am not convinced that photos of organs on a flat paper targets are as helpful as leaning to use correct shot placement on a 3D target. If you shoot the same spot on the center chest from a wide enough angle, or while rotated around the target, you will not get the pass-through shot you want.

Edit: I posted before watching the video and he addressed the 3d target issue. For target sizes or standards have used 3x5 cards, 1", 2", 4", and 6" circles, and sometimes a USPSA target but only counting the top half of the A-zone as an adequate hit.

 

[BE Mike]

Targets are not nearly as important as learning the fundamentals of marksmanship.

 

[Jackson]

Targets are not nearly as important as learning the fundamentals of marksmanship.

Of course. I think he is trying to say that different targets support development of marksmanship fundamentals better than others. The target is one of the tools you use to learn the fundamentals.

 

[ditcherman]

I think the appropriate standard for a head shot should probably be a 3" circle or maybe even 2". The scull is round and you want to hit it pretty straight or in one of the small soft spots to get high-probability results. The little bits in the middle you're really trying to disrupt are pretty small.

I'd say the same about highly effective torso shots. The maybe a 4" - 6" circle there if you want to be precise.

A 3” circle sounds small to me. I can have one ragged hole at 7 yards if given the time. For where I’m at trying to shoot faster, because one ragged hole can be boring, two to the head (whatever size) in 2.5 or a bill drill in 2.5 is relevant practice to me.
A 2” circle sounds too small to me. But that also sounds like a balance between shoot fast or shoot precise. How does one make that call in a real life situation? I don’t think I want to take 4-5 seconds to make that precise shot but I’m open to arguments.

 

[BE Mike]

A 3” circle sounds small to me. I can have one ragged hole at 7 yards if given the time. For where I’m at trying to shoot faster, because one ragged hole can be boring, two to the head (whatever size) in 2.5 or a bill drill in 2.5 is relevant practice to me.
A 2” circle sounds too small to me. But that also sounds like a balance between shoot fast or shoot precise. How does one make that call in a real life situation? I don’t think I want to take 4-5 seconds to make that precise shot but I’m open to arguments.

7 yds. is indeed way too easy and boring to anyone who has put in the effort to learn proper fundamentals. A NRA B-8 target at 25 yards with a 5.5" black, will be a bigger challenge. There are actually people who can shoot a "ragged" one hole group of ten shots with one hand and unsupported, with time limits.

 

[Jackson]

A 3” circle sounds small to me. I can have one ragged hole at 7 yards if given the time. For where I’m at trying to shoot faster, because one ragged hole can be boring, two to the head (whatever size) in 2.5 or a bill drill in 2.5 is relevant practice to me.
A 2” circle sounds too small to me. But that also sounds like a balance between shoot fast or shoot precise. How does one make that call in a real life situation? I don’t think I want to take 4-5 seconds to make that precise shot but I’m open to arguments.

A 3" circle is achievable inside respectable and useful times, even from the holster, at 7 - 15 yds. A 2" circle is also achievable but more difficult. If you're trying to make a head shot in a real situation at 25 yards, you better be really good. Heads move around quite a bit. As BE Mike said, some people shoot tight groups at 25 yards. Some people can reliably make A-Zone head shots on USPSA targets at 25 yards in pretty impressive times. Those boxes are 2"x4" or so.

How do you make the call in a real-life situation? If you're going to do it predictably, you should probably be training regularly. Not just on the range (there too), but in some scenarios where you have to a make decisions with pressure, realistic distances, realistic time constraints, and realistic shot opportunities.

I probably cannot do any of these things reliably right now as I have not practiced consistently in several years. When I practiced consistently I could do some of the above. I never worked consistently enough to make those tight 25 yard groups though.

 

[cedartop]

7 yds. is indeed way too easy and boring to anyone who has put in the effort to learn proper fundamentals. A NRA B-8 target at 25 yards with a 5.5" black, will be a bigger challenge. There are actually people who can shoot a "ragged" one hole group of ten shots with one hand and unsupported, with time limits.

2 way range

 

[cedartop]

Really good follow up. This could be useful to a lot of people.