Tactics for stopping an active shooter.

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  • dudley0

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    It is not always a matter of handgun vs Ar/AK. It’s more of a matter of a courage, conditioning and processing speed that can be the end game for the maniac. A car, a friend that draws attention as the shooter can only muzzle in one direction at a time, (wolves do this), total knowledge of his weapon and mags, getting on his backside with a knife, ball bat or just break his neck. It should start with the very first citizen to witness a camo creep lurching around with a long gun and evil in his eyes. If I act too soon and end up neutralizing a choir boy, still better than children being destroyed. Just my thoughts.
    Wait a minute....

    You are saying you are fine with killing a choir boy because he might have been a bad guy?
     

    Gunmetalgray

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    not lost, wandering...
    As mentioned, training is key, and comes in lots of forms; reading, instructor led, situational awareness, range time, etc...
    But if those sound like going to the gym or running on a treadmill :puke:, try one of many monthly shooting sports events to make if fun & helpful at the same time. IDPA shoots are a great example. Yes, it is a "sport", NOT real life. But that start timer releases adrenaline just like real life. The stages 'simulate' defensive shooting situations, shooting from cover, avoiding hitting a good guy behind the bad guy, etc... And with it being a regularly scheduled event, helps keep skills sharp over time. If in central/western area, try https://wvrpc.org/idpa/ and don't let the term 'match' scare anyone away, yes there are some great competitors in attendance but the majority by far are everyday guys & gals just having fun.
     

    Amishman44

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    Like others here, I find myself out in public unarmed to many times (let the flames begin). I tell myself that I'm just going to the store or running a couple of short errands and will be back home shortly. Well, those days are over. I now keep my truck keys next to me EDC so that I can grab both any time I leave the house. I have also made a concentrated effort to become far more observant of my surroundings any time I am out and about. Yes, I have started putting more range time in as well.

    I have 2 questions for the huddled masses here. First, how does one prepare for the actual emotions that will occur if you are forced to take a life to save another? Physical and mental training are 1 thing, but what about emotional training? 2nd question is about choice of weapon. I am currently comfortable with my S&W Shield .45. But I am wondering if I am "under gunned" in today's world. Not in caliber, but in ammo capacity. I would like to think that 7 rds would be more than enough to stop the threat, but would 15 rds of 9mm be better? Yeah, I know shot placement is key, but does the "more is better" theory apply here?
    I welcome your comments.
    Let me conclude with, like you, I pray that I am never put to the test. But if I am, then I can only hope that I have the courage and skills to do what must be done.
    Great couple of questions, and honest questions, which is always the best place to start...
    I make it a point to never be out in public without a firearm...I have a 5-shot, S&W 360 in .38 that I often throw in a pocket, even if it's just a short trip around the corner to a convenience store to get gas, snacks, or pop...being in the habit of making sure you have 'something' is better than nothing. I have people who make fun of me for carrying 'just' a .38 special...and I simply point out that there are people who actually consider .380 acp and .32 acp to be valid 'self-defense' calibers...it usually gets 'em quiet.
    Carrying a S&W Shield .45 acp...absolutely nothing wrong with that...I love the .45 acp caliber and, in a shorter barrel, I prefer the 165 grain or 185 grain rounds as they shoot lighter and tend to be a bit more accurate with lesser felt recoil allowing for faster or more accurate follow up shots if necessary? It most cases, probably 9:10 times, you're probably only dealing with 1 - 2 individuals, so you'd probably be okay with a 7+1 capacity firearm. If you're facing 3-5 bad guys...you'd probably better be better off seeking shelter and defending vs engaging them all simultaneously.
    Having good situational awareness (head on a swivel, maintaining a 30-50' bubble around you, being aware of potential threats and being able to take steps to avoid conflict in the first place) is a developed skill...
    But to address your biggest question, the one about 'emotional' training...I don't really know of any preparatory 'training' for handling the emotional aspect of being involved in a life-n-death situation, one in which you may have to take another life to protect / defending what you love as that's usually an aftermath issue.
    As a former volunteer EMT with 24 years' experience, one does learn to 'disassociate' (or 'box-out') oneself from the incident or scene and perform according to the needs found upon arrival at the time of the need, but that doesn't mean one doesn't need assistance in working through some of the emotional aspects one has afterwards.
    The important thing is, to be able and honest to recognize when one is having difficulty in dealing with trauma and being able to seek assistance in dealing with the trauma with an appropriately trained, trauma-based counselor. I can tell you that most trauma-based counselors are very good at what they do as they've had a desire to assist others with some difficult tasks in times of need...and they are very helpful! Working through difficult emotions, post trauma, and getting back to rational 'normal' or 'positive' thought...is key to surviving, getting through, and recovering from difficult and traumatic events.
    Great question and one many people don't think of or are afraid to ask as many have a, 'Hey, I'm a tough guy and I can handle anything.' approach when the truth is, even the toughest of men (physically, machoism, etc.) can have things that nip at and/or eat away at them, from the inside, and need help dealing with things, or putting things to rest, from time to time.
    Tough to answer everything in an online post, and much of this response comes experience as a former volunteer EMT and high school biology & health teacher (who taught the mental health portion as part of high school health program for several years) but, hopefully, this helps answer or at least gives some perspective to your questions...???
     
    Last edited:

    Amishman44

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    Respectfully, dig back in your memory to a time in your life when you were terrified. Did your body shake after the adrenaline dump? Does that impact your aim? Do you train with that in mind or adjust your carry choice to accommodate the very human element of fear? I practice to be able to hit the X with a 22 pistol at 50 feet. Would I be able to do that under pressure? Not a chance.

    I was sitting in church several weeks ago and noticed odd behavior by three men. I assumed they were security but I do not know. I watched Mr. Clean shaved button-up walk in and try to look cool as he was very intent on someone/something near the front center opposite the side I was sitting on. He took his time to pretend to be friendly to others while taking in as much as he could of his target. No printing from his tucked in shirt, no jacket to cover a firearm. I was now on alert...review the exits, which are closer, which would most people run to, which would put me in the line of fire from the obvious locations? I was unarmed, spent several minutes chastising myself for poor choices. Second guy comes in immediately following Mr. Clean shaved button-up, this guy was wearing jeans and a dress shirt and sits in the empty chair immediately in front of me and very intent on someone/something near the front center opposite me. I text the hubs giving a quick sit rep and try and decide my exit strategy. Third guy comes in and sits across the isle from me, this guy is more ex-military vibe wearing sneakers, jeans and a t-shirt. I remember making eye contact with this particular gentleman when I entered the building that morning, I scan a room every time I walk into one...something about him gave me the creeps. He sat down and was very intent on the same target as the first two and was not trying to be low key about his interest (sloppy?). That was enough for me. I gathered my things and left. I've since begun the journey of selecting an EDC w/ laser and training with it. I've tried several holster options that would accommodate a dress/skirt so that I can carry quietly and unnoticed, and ensure I am NOT in that situation again. I believe the 'rules' have changed and we are not safe anywhere anymore. I don't like this new era but I also do not want to sit by and be a slave to it...or a slave to fear. I'll not be disarmed again.

    I agree completely with the poster above who says training is key. We have to have the muscle memory to react the way we want to in moments of extreme stress. If we choose to carry we are also taking upon ourselves to act responsibility in those moments. I asked myself if I would take a shot if I had to, if I were the only one armed and my answer was 'no' because I wasn't comfortable with my skill at a distance when shaking in fear...so I am changing to recalculate that equation. I've changed the tool, I am changing the training, and I am improving the skills that I pray I will never need...
    Okie...just a though here...you did good to recognize that 'something' was going on...I'll bet many missed it, in church on a Sunday morning. Being discrete is a good thing, but it's also concerning to those who recognize it. I'm on our security team at our church and our goal is to remain as discrete as possible (basically, do church 'uninterrupted' if at all possible.) We use Verbal Judo first, an intermediate level defensive second, and a firearm as an absolutely LAST resort if at all possible.)
    Something you might want to do is inquire as to whether your church has a security team and see if you can get a read on how they do things? Some church's, nowadays, have concerns about individual(s) who have firearms in church (legally and responsibly) but if something breaks out, and unknown individuals draw their firearms and insert themselves into a situation, they may become targets simply because they present as an 'un-known' in an active and dynamic situation, especially if someone is wounded and their brain/body has gone into 'survival' mode. Just suggesting a 'heads-up' for being safe first...kudos on recognizing the situation when it occurred!
     

    Steve

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    Great couple of questions, and honest questions, which is always the best place to start...
    I make it a point to never be out in public without a firearm...I have a 5-shot, S&W 360 in .38 that I often throw in a pocket, even if it's just a short trip around the corner to a convenience store to get gas, snacks, or pop...being in the habit of making sure you have 'something' is better than nothing. I have people who make fun of me for carrying 'just' a .38 special...and I simply point out that there are people who actually consider .380 acp and .32 acp to be valid 'self-defense' calibers...it usually gets 'em quiet.
    Carrying a S&W Shield .45 acp...absolutely nothing wrong with that...I love the .45 acp caliber and, in a shorter barrel, I prefer the 165 grain or 185 grain rounds as they shoot lighter and tend to be a bit more accurate with lesser felt recoil allowing for faster or more accurate follow up shots if necessary? It most cases, probably 9:10 times, you're probably only dealing with 1 - 2 individuals, so you'd probably be okay with a 7+1 capacity firearm. If you're facing 3-5 bad guys...you'd probably better be better off seeking shelter and defending vs engaging them all simultaneously.
    Having good situational awareness (head on a swivel, maintaining a 30-50' bubble around you, being aware of potential threats and being able to take steps to avoid conflict in the first place) is a developed skill...
    But to address your biggest question, the one about 'emotional' training...I don't really know of any preparatory 'training' for handling the emotional aspect of being involved in a life-n-death situation, one in which you may have to take another life to protect / defending what you love as that's usually an aftermath issue.
    As a former volunteer EMT with 24 years' experience, one does learn to 'disassociate' (or 'box-out' oneself from the incident or scene and perform according to the needs found upon arrival at the time of the need, but that doesn't mean one doesn't need assistance in working through some of the emotional aspects one has afterwards.
    The important thing is, to be able and honest to recognize when one is having difficulty in dealing with trauma and being able to seek assistance in dealing with the trauma with an appropriately trained, trauma-based counselor. I can tell you that most trauma-based counselors are very good at what they do as they've had a desire to assist others with some difficult tasks in times of need...and they are very helpful! Working through difficult emotions, post trauma, and getting back to rational 'normal' or 'positive' thought...is key to surviving, getting through, and recovering from difficult and traumatic events.
    Great question and one many people don't think of or are afraid to ask as many have a, 'Hey, I'm a tough guy and I can handle anything.' approach when the truth is, even the toughest of men (physically, machoism, etc.) can have things that nip at and/or eat away at them, from the inside, and need help dealing with things, or putting things to rest, from time to time.
    Tough to answer everything in an online post, and much of this response comes experience as a former volunteer EMT and high school biology & health teacher (who taught the mental health portion as part of high school health program for several years) but, hopefully, this helps answer or at least gives some perspective to your questions...???
    Thank you, Amishman44. Excellent reply.
     

    ditcherman

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    Like others here, I find myself out in public unarmed to many times (let the flames begin). I tell myself that I'm just going to the store or running a couple of short errands and will be back home shortly. Well, those days are over. I now keep my truck keys next to me EDC so that I can grab both any time I leave the house. I have also made a concentrated effort to become far more observant of my surroundings any time I am out and about. Yes, I have started putting more range time in as well.

    I have 2 questions for the huddled masses here. First, how does one prepare for the actual emotions that will occur if you are forced to take a life to save another? Physical and mental training are 1 thing, but what about emotional training? 2nd question is about choice of weapon. I am currently comfortable with my S&W Shield .45. But I am wondering if I am "under gunned" in today's world. Not in caliber, but in ammo capacity. I would like to think that 7 rds would be more than enough to stop the threat, but would 15 rds of 9mm be better? Yeah, I know shot placement is key, but does the "more is better" theory apply here?

    I welcome your comments.

    Let me conclude with, like you, I pray that I am never put to the test. But if I am, then I can only hope that I have the courage and skills to do what must be done.
    Concerning the emotional question, some of that “may” (no experience here just theorizing) depend somewhat on how you handle “normal” things. Do you have to bring work drama home, and vice-versa? Can you contain yourself when needed but open up and tell the truth when appropriate?
    Just some random thoughts as I read through Amishman’s excellent response above.
     

    ditcherman

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    Respectfully, dig back in your memory to a time in your life when you were terrified. Did your body shake after the adrenaline dump? Does that impact your aim? Do you train with that in mind or adjust your carry choice to accommodate the very human element of fear? I practice to be able to hit the X with a 22 pistol at 50 feet. Would I be able to do that under pressure? Not a chance.

    I was sitting in church several weeks ago and noticed odd behavior by three men. I assumed they were security but I do not know. I watched Mr. Clean shaved button-up walk in and try to look cool as he was very intent on someone/something near the front center opposite the side I was sitting on. He took his time to pretend to be friendly to others while taking in as much as he could of his target. No printing from his tucked in shirt, no jacket to cover a firearm. I was now on alert...review the exits, which are closer, which would most people run to, which would put me in the line of fire from the obvious locations? I was unarmed, spent several minutes chastising myself for poor choices. Second guy comes in immediately following Mr. Clean shaved button-up, this guy was wearing jeans and a dress shirt and sits in the empty chair immediately in front of me and very intent on someone/something near the front center opposite me. I text the hubs giving a quick sit rep and try and decide my exit strategy. Third guy comes in and sits across the isle from me, this guy is more ex-military vibe wearing sneakers, jeans and a t-shirt. I remember making eye contact with this particular gentleman when I entered the building that morning, I scan a room every time I walk into one...something about him gave me the creeps. He sat down and was very intent on the same target as the first two and was not trying to be low key about his interest (sloppy?). That was enough for me. I gathered my things and left. I've since begun the journey of selecting an EDC w/ laser and training with it. I've tried several holster options that would accommodate a dress/skirt so that I can carry quietly and unnoticed, and ensure I am NOT in that situation again. I believe the 'rules' have changed and we are not safe anywhere anymore. I don't like this new era but I also do not want to sit by and be a slave to it...or a slave to fear. I'll not be disarmed again.

    I agree completely with the poster above who says training is key. We have to have the muscle memory to react the way we want to in moments of extreme stress. If we choose to carry we are also taking upon ourselves to act responsibility in those moments. I asked myself if I would take a shot if I had to, if I were the only one armed and my answer was 'no' because I wasn't comfortable with my skill at a distance when shaking in fear...so I am changing to recalculate that equation. I've changed the tool, I am changing the training, and I am improving the skills that I pray I will never need...
    I bet your church security team would love to know your perspective of the situation, your attitude of awareness, and that they have a cohort in you, whether officially on the team or not.

    They should know they can trust you, maybe even to see something they might not in a future situation.

    And if this wasn’t internal security team, then someone needs to know as it might not be over. If it was you can let them know it could have been handled better, possibly.

    For me, I’m committed to carrying to church, as that’s generally the most exposed/ most targeted place I’ll be all week. Many days I don’t carry at all.

    I’ll add it is very commendable of you to realize that you shouldn’t take the shot. A big fear for me from the church security perspective is that way too many people will try to channel their inner Texas Jack to make a shot they have no business taking.
     

    OkieGirl

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    I bet your church security team would love to know your perspective of the situation, your attitude of awareness, and that they have a cohort in you, whether officially on the team or not.

    They should know they can trust you, maybe even to see something they might not in a future situation.

    And if this wasn’t internal security team, then someone needs to know as it might not be over. If it was you can let them know it could have been handled better, possibly.

    For me, I’m committed to carrying to church, as that’s generally the most exposed/ most targeted place I’ll be all week. Many days I don’t carry at all.

    I’ll add it is very commendable of you to realize that you shouldn’t take the shot. A big fear for me from the church security perspective is that way too many people will try to channel their inner Texas Jack to make a shot they have no business taking.

    I have a family member in another state who has been in some form of law enforcement or another for 20+ years. He trains officers but also manages security for his church. Situational awareness is a conversation we've had many times. I also believe it is a heavy responsibility we take on when we choose to carry. It's as much mental preparation as it is muscle memory; you have to decide where your line is drawn long before you find yourself in a situation such as this.

    *Side Note: We also need to train ourselves to re-holster once the threat if over. That is a common problem when Law Enforcement arrive to an active shooter and there are armed citizens on scene. They cannot easily differentiate between an armed aggressor or an armed citizen.

    As far as church security? I will ask, if there is an opportunity to do so and not seem creepy. I'm just a visitor, not a member at this time. I do believe this was internal security; I've seen guy #2 again with a visible ear piece and blending in well with chatter between others in the service. Observing body language and expressions, I'd say he's a member there. I know some churches receive threats from time to time and I wonder if something like that has happened recently. This particular church does a 'live' feed for shut-ins and would be a realistic target if someone wanted to garner as much publicity as they could. My personal goal is that they would never know I carry if they met me or sat next to me; I blend in and try to make myself an unlikely target...just one of the sheep.
     
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    ditcherman

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    I have a family member in another state who has been in some form of law enforcement or another for 20+ years. He trains officers but also manages security for his church. Situational awareness is a conversation we've had many times. I also believe it is a heavy responsibility we take on when we choose to carry. It's as much mental preparation as it is muscle memory; you have to decide where your line is drawn long before you find yourself in a situation such as this.

    *Side Note: We also need to train ourselves to re-holster once the threat if over. That is a common problem when Law Enforcement arrive to an active shooter and there are armed citizens on scene. They cannot easily differentiate between an armed aggressor or an armed citizen.

    As far as church security? I will ask, if there is an opportunity to do so and not seem creepy. I'm just a visitor, not a member at this time. I do believe this was internal security; I've seen guy #2 again with a visible ear piece and blending in well with chatter between others in the service. Observing body language and expressions, I'd say he's a member there. I know some churches receive threats from time to time and I wonder if something like that has happened recently. This particular church does a 'live' feed for shut-ins and would be a realistic target if someone wanted to garner as much publicity as they could. My personal goal is that they would never know I carry if they met me or sat next to me; I blend in and try to make myself an unlikely target...just one of the sheep.
    Just as you stated it’s good to know how to reholster so the police don’t mistake you, I’ll still argue the security team may like to know who’s who. Or they may not, depending on size and other factors.

    So, different church culture for me, membership is not a big deal, gives voting rights and a few more leadership positions, I only say this in that if you’re a regular attender you’re same as member at mine. Only a visitor once, to some degree. So not familiar with how those divisions might play out in your case.

    There certainly could have been a threat, but I would bet it’s much more innocuous (INGO 5$ word right there!) than that. Couple separating, argument that morning, she doesn’t want him allowed to pick up the kids, so gets security involved. Or any number of less glamorous reasons security often gets called in.

    Not trying to be argumentative, just my honest reactions. Although it may be in my nature to be argumentative.
     

    Amishman44

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    *Side Note: We also need to train ourselves to re-holster once the threat if over. That is a common problem when Law Enforcement arrive to an active shooter and there are armed citizens on scene. They cannot easily differentiate between an armed aggressor or an armed citizen.
    That, or at least lower the pistol so as not to be 'engaged' with the threat. It's important to note that there is a natural tendency, once engaged in a gun battle, or be in 'survival' mode, to keep one's gun trained on the aggressor, even after they're down...kind of like a 'just in case' response... and, with many individuals sliding into 'tunnel-vision' during a shootout (product of the amygdala of the brain function), initially, they may miss hearing someone saying 'put the gun down' or may respond reactively to having another gun pointing at them...so if, always make it a point to approach them slowly, to speak softly, and to exercise great caution when approaching (with hand up and palm hand facing forward) as if to signal 'safety'.
     
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