Tactical Decision Game - LEO Interaction

[1032JBT]

First my response, put the gun on the deck BEFORE the cops even have chance to get out of the car, as in start putting it down as you see them almost there. Then do EXACTLY what they say and when they say to do it. I will give them a Readers Digest version then ask for a lawyer.

Now my opinion on my perspective as the responding LEO:

Read fpdshooters response above and follow it.......to the letter. Remember, you just shot someone and are armed. Any action other than putting the gun down, like dropping the mag or racking the slide could be intrepreted as hostile actions and could end with you being on the reciving end of what you just gave the BG. Just remember that if you choose to drop the mag or rack the slide, you have to move the gun, which depending on the scenario might place that in a position that could be construed as being pointed at the police. Why take the risk??? Just put it down.

 

[Hellion_1]

With the immediate threat neutralized, my gun would have been re-holstered. Next move, call 911 and alert them to the situation and circumstances. Next, wait for law enforcement to arrive and alert them to me being armed and follow their EVERY instruction. I would not have my weapon out when they arrived, nor would I attempt to unload it or put it down while they were present unless instructed to do so.

 

[indyjoe]

I\'d put the gun back in the car and call the police myself. As far as cooperating the the officer\'s on the scene, I wouldn\'t ask for an attorney and go ahead and talk to them. From my experience, everyone who ask for an attorney is guilty of something. If you didnt do anything wrong, why not say what happened?

Let us move past the fact (yes fact) that due to physiological effects which happen at a time of stress, Tachy Psyche (slowing down of time) and others, you will think what you are saying is true, but it will not be. You will be lying but believing what you say is true.

If you case is totally beyond all other ways justified, this will probably not come back to bite you in the butt. Your decision to talk to the police is not a smart one. It can allow you to be convicted of murder, when it was actually a justified shooting. Also, it can open the civil lawsuit vulnerability that might not have been there before, had you just SHUT UP.

Might want to check these videos out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912

 

[indyjoe]

BTW - This is been good in the sense of thinking through the process. I personally see making a gun safe as a good move. Looking at it through LEO eyes, the best way to be safe from a gun is that it be out of the possible attackers hands. Lesson learned. Just set it down on the ground.

 

[colt45er]

Geez, what is it with you folks and dropping the mag? I'm sorry - the pistol will be laying on the ground, or holstered, depending upon the situation. I will not operate any of the controls.

Anything more than that will be at the officers' direction.

I'm with you on this one. First off, if you just drop the mag and one is in the tube, the gun is still a threat, even if you managed to rack the slide without getting shot, officers should be treating all guns as if they are loaded, even if they saw you unload it.

That much movement is likely to get you shot, just don't move and listen to the cops.

Also DO NOT try to tell the officers what you are doing before they ask you. Changes are if they are yelling and you yell back they will take it as agression.

Just listed to them

 

[ATM]

Freeze. Follow instructions slowly and precisely. Keep pie hole mostly frozen as well.

 

[cosermann]

. . . and give the nice officer the handy wallet card Jim gave us at our Utah CCW class.

 

[dburkhead]

. . . and give the nice officer the handy wallet card Jim gave us at our Utah CCW class.

Which would involve reaching for your wallet at the scene of a shooting where the police, coming in not knowing what happened previously, could interpret in all sorts of new and interesting ways.

 

[SWAT-DOC]

I would assume a defensive position with respect to the suspect and the surrounding street. He may not be working alone... If he is breathing I would prone him out and cuff him. If he had a weapon I would secure it. Call 9-1-1 and report the shooting location and give the dispatcher my description. Reholster just prior to the arrival of the first LEO and DO EXACTLY WHAT THE NICE POLICE MAN TELLS ME TO DO.

 

[cosermann]

Which would involve reaching for your wallet at the scene of a shooting where the police, coming in not knowing what happened previously, could interpret in all sorts of new and interesting ways.

No, the ". . . and" was meant to indicate "after following the actions above." Obvioulsy, the police are sorting out the situation in those first few moments and obviously all the standard keep your hands visible/no sudden moves/etc. applies. Duh.

 

[SWAT-DOC]

indyjoe, I really enjoyed the videos

 

[GlockRock]

Let us move past the fact (yes fact) that due to physiological effects which happen at a time of stress, Tachy Psyche (slowing down of time) and others, you will think what you are saying is true, but it will not be. You will be lying but believing what you say is true.

If you case is totally beyond all other ways justified, this will probably not come back to bite you in the butt. Your decision to talk to the police is not a smart one. It can allow you to be convicted of murder, when it was actually a justified shooting. Also, it can open the civil lawsuit vulnerability that might not have been there before, had you just SHUT UP.

Might want to check these videos out: "Don't Talk to the Police" by Professor James Duane "Don't Talk to the Police" by Officer George Bruch

If I dont tell the police what happened, how will they know what took place? What if there are no other witnesses? Say I was involved in a shooting that was justified. I call the police and tell them that I shot someone and give them the location. They send lots of officers. They ask what happened then I tell them I dont wish to talk until I speak to an attorney. All the police know is that I shot someone and they're dead. Looks to me as I'm definitely on my way to jail, at least until an attorney gets there, which could be several hours. I would rather just tell them what happened and clear myself as soon as I can.

 

[dburkhead]

If I dont tell the police what happened, how will they know what took place? What if there are no other witnesses? Say I was involved in a shooting that was justified. I call the police and tell them that I shot someone and give them the location. They send lots of officers. They ask what happened then I tell them I dont wish to talk until I speak to an attorney. All the police know is that I shot someone and they're dead. Looks to me as I'm definitely on my way to jail, at least until an attorney gets there, which could be several hours. I would rather just tell them what happened and clear myself as soon as I can.

"I was in fear for my life. I want to help you with your investigation, but I'm really shook up and I think I should speak to my lawyer before saying anything else."

I'm sure you would never, in the stress of having just come through a life-threatening situation, with adrenaline pumping through your body, your heart pounding at something on the high side of 200 bpm, or worse, coming down off of the adrenaline, say the wrong thing or say something that could be misconstrued that "can and will be used against you in a court of law." That you wouldn't make a mistake that someone might decide was actually a lie. (After all, it was "lying to investigators" that Martha Stewart was convicted of, no need for that pesky "under oath" to effectively have the penalties of perjury.) That you wouldn't say something that disagrees with what some other eyewitness might say (which is a bit harder since you can't control what the other witnesses might say--even in terms of honest mistakes on their part).

I, however, am not so confident.

If the situation is one where the police are inclined to arrest you, then nothing you say will stop that. (Question to the LEOs that participate here: has anybody ever talked you out of arresting them? I suspect that's a rhetorical question.) You can, however, talk them into arresting you.

In the original scenario you are almost certainly going to be taken into custody. Talking to the police is not going to stop that. However it's entirely possible that you might say something in the confusion and stress of the moment that can turn around and bite you. Like in the cop shows: "anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."

"I was in fear for my life." That, right there, is the key to your defense. That is all you need to say until you've had a chance to calm down and talk things over with your attorney. "I was in fear for my life."

 

[JNG]

Identify myself and obey all instructions with alacrity.

 

[JNG]

If I dont tell the police what happened, how will they know what took place? What if there are no other witnesses? Say I was involved in a shooting that was justified. I call the police and tell them that I shot someone and give them the location. They send lots of officers. They ask what happened then I tell them I dont wish to talk until I speak to an attorney. All the police know is that I shot someone and they're dead. Looks to me as I'm definitely on my way to jail, at least until an attorney gets there, which could be several hours. I would rather just tell them what happened and clear myself as soon as I can.

You're more than likely going to jail regardless. 24 hours of inconvenience in jail waiting for your lawyer to do his thing is better than 10 years in the can you could have spent as a free man, had you just waited for your lawyer.

 

[techres]

Drop my gun and step back from it if I have not already holstered it. Get off the cel phone (which I was on the phone with the dispatcher on). Preparing to shut my mouth!

 

[BulletSponge]

Stoplight! We don't have Stoplight's we have stop signs and corn, but we do have dead scumbags. You need to do nothing, the police will tell you what to do. Then shut your mouth and keep it shut!

 

[SMiller]

My gun is getting holstered, not laid on the ground. I would still have the bad guy at gun point when the cop shows up and the dispatcher would know EVERYTHING that is going on, if you ever listen to a scaner the dispatch relays everything to the cops coming, tell them whats going on so when the cops show up they are more cooled down and know what they are walking up on.

 

[Chefcook]

Copyright 2009 by James M. Floyd, Jr. All rights reserved.

Tactical Decision Games (TDG) are utilized by the military and public safety agencies as a low tech, yet effective, means of experiencing and discussing the practical application of decision making skills to situations.

Below is a TDG I created to stimulate your thinking. To participate, please read the TDG, and then make your decision, based only on the (intentionally limited) information provided, within 10 seconds. Then post a reply stating your decision and your rationale.

The goal of a TDG is not to seek "the only" or "the correct" answer but instead is intended to create a social learning environment, so please do not hesitate to participate.

Here is the scenario:

LEO Interaction

TIME: 4:05 p.m.

PLACE: Public street

WEATHER: Clear, 85 degrees Fahrenheit

LIGHTING: Sunlight

SITUATION: You are a legally armed citizen who has just been involved in a defensive lethal force situation. You have shot the armed assailant who was attempting to carjack you at a stoplight. He is down and not moving. You are holding him at gunpoint in the public street next to your car when multiple law enforcement officers arrive on scene.

[FONT=&quot]What is your selected course of action? Make a decision within the next 10 seconds.[/FONT]

Listen carefully for and follow instructions given to the letter. Depending on the attitude of the officers I may or may not talk to them. Call my family and my lawyer as soon as possible....