So I have a hankering to trade...

[Dean C.]

I'm really kinda surprised at the number of people who like the grip of the P365. I don't have especially large hands and I find it much too small to even consider getting one.

I wonder if a lot of people really like them because:
A. They are a Sig
B. They hold a lot of rounds
C. It's all the rage right now.

Maybe they just live with the teeny grip, I would like to know. Cuz there is no way that dudes with large mitts are going to honestly be able to say that it fits me well and I can get a good grip on it.

Everyone is different , I like a 1911 with slim grips on it too if that tells you anything. But I have medium sized hands. My advice to all new shooters asking what gun to buy I tell them go to a range that has rentals. Start with the known brands Sig, Springfield , Glock so on then shoot them all and go with what you shoot best the easiest.

With as many great options on the market today that we have it still astounds me people don't take ergonomics into much higher account. Mini rant over

 

[Amishman44]

I have often wondered in recent years how much difference the "comfort" angle makes vs quality range time and coaching to become familiar with pistols overall?
We hear it all the time about taking new shooters (often women) through many guns to find one that fits them vs training to a standard adopted by most LEO agencies and EDC citizens?
It's not like we cannot find many people of all statures, genders and ages that have learned to shoot this standard well, right?

I can't speak for a lot of people, but I know that my sister and my wife both struggled to shoot competently, much less even enjoy shooting, until they found a pistol that they were 'comfortable' with, grip-wise enough to get past the 'comfort' issue and focus on actually shooting the pistol itself. Now that she's back to a Beretta (92FS...and soon to be 92 Compact) with the fatter grip, my wife's accuracy has improved 80%+! Over the years, my wife's been through Beretta, Glock (19 & 26), H&K P2000SK, Smith Wesson Shield 9, Springfield XDm-9, and an Ruger SP101 .38 caliber revolver, to name a few, in searching for that 'comfort' level that best fits her hand.
I wouldn't say 'comfort' is a key word I would use when I select a handgun, but I will say that experience and muscle-memory does play a key role...and the shooting style / grip angle I grew up with shooting single-action revolvers, with the plow-share grips, produced in me or taught me a more aggressive angle for holding a handgun. Hence, the more aggressive grip angle of the Glock is a better fit, or feel, for natural point-of-aim, than what the Sig 365 or Ruger MAX-9 pistol's have to offer with their more vertical grip angle.
Not every individual has to like every gun...
Not every gun fits every individual...
Hand or grip size alone can make a difference...
Thankfully, there are several manufacturers, models, sizes, grip-angles, grip-diameters, and (nowadays) grip adapters to help make various manufacturer's grips more adaptable to more of the variables that different individual's hands require!

 

[gregkl]

Everyone is different , I like a 1911 with slim grips on it too if that tells you anything. But I have medium sized hands. My advice to all new shooters asking what gun to buy I tell them go to a range that has rentals. Start with the known brands Sig, Springfield , Glock so on then shoot them all and go with what you shoot best the easiest.

With as many great options on the market today that we have it still astounds me people don't take ergonomics into much higher account. Mini rant over

I would like to check out slim grips at some point. I am thinking I would like them, but I'm too cheap to buy some.

 

[gregkl]

What aspect of the size of the 365 is an issue for you? Circumference or length? If length, have you tried an XL module or the 12 round mag in the standard 355 module (which are both the same length)?

It's circumference. Mostly the front to back dimension.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really splitting hairs here. Though I really like the grip of the Shield, I found it just a tad narrow for my liking. The new Plus fixed that.

 

[Route 45]

I have often wondered in recent years how much difference the "comfort" angle makes vs quality range time and coaching to become familiar with pistols overall?

We hear it all the time about taking new shooters (often women) through many guns to find one that fits them vs training to a standard adopted by most LEO agencies and EDC citizens?

It's not like we cannot find many people of all statures, genders and ages that have learned to shoot this standard well, right?

If you spent any time at a police range, you'd have to change your definition of "shoot this standard well."

One size does not fit all, and fitting a handgun to an individual shooter is not even close to the main consideration when an agency selects a duty handgun. Agencies just need their officers to shoot it "well enough." Sorta. If you can't really group your shots well, a bit more of a pattern will do. An ageny's main criteria is cost, reliability, ease of maintenance and cost when picking a handgun for general issue.

Most agencies allow a wide variety of backup/off duty handguns, for those officers that can be bothered to shoot more than a couple of times a year. Some agencies even allow for an officer to select their actual duty weapon from an approved roster, usually at their own expense if it's not the ageny's standard issue.

Some pistols just feel more natural than others. And for those who find one that points right, recoils right and feels good in the hand, there's no reason to force themselves to adopt what somebody else thinks is a "standard."

 

[Route 45]

Circumference or length?

I've heard that circumference is really more important.

Wait...

Maybe that wasn't on a gun forum.

 

[WebSnyper]

I've heard that circumference is really more important.

Wait...

Maybe that wasn't on a gun forum.

I refrained from using the word girth...

 

[Route 45]

I refrained from using the word girth...

Two of the most uncomfortable words in the English language, despite not being vulgar in and of themselves, are girth and moist.

 

[bwframe]

If you spent any time at a police range, you'd have to change your definition of "shoot this standard well."

One size does not fit all, and fitting a handgun to an individual shooter is not even close to the main consideration when an agency selects a duty handgun. Agencies just need their officers to shoot it "well enough." Sorta. If you can't really group your shots well, a bit more of a pattern will do. An ageny's main criteria is cost, reliability, ease of maintenance and cost when picking a handgun for general issue.

Most agencies allow a wide variety of backup/off duty handguns, for those officers that can be bothered to shoot more than a couple of times a year. Some agencies even allow for an officer to select their actual duty weapon from an approved roster, usually at their own expense if it's not the ageny's standard issue.

Some pistols just feel more natural than others. And for those who find one that points right, recoils right and feels good in the hand, there's no reason to force themselves to adopt what somebody else thinks is a "standard."

Not a cop, but I've trained many hours and shot competition with plenty of LEO. Some of the best you'll ever see and some of the worst you'll ever see.

I've put in a little time on the range, but thanks for the advice.

 

[Route 45]

Not a cop, but I've trained many hours and shot competition with plenty of LEO. Some of the best you'll ever see and some of the worst you'll ever see.

I've put in a little time on the range, but thanks for the advice.

Take a guess at the percentage of cops who shoot competition. I'd be shocked if it was more than a fraction of 1%.

Plenty of experience here shooting with the other 99%. I'll just say that I'm glad that I know how to shoot.

Yikes.

 

[bwframe]

Take a guess at the percentage of cops who shoot competition. I'd be shocked if it was more than a fraction of 1%.

Plenty of experience here shooting with the other 99%. I'll just say that I'm glad that I know how to shoot.

Yikes.

I'll agree with you there. With the utmost respect to LEO and military, that experience does not necessarily indicate good or safe gun handling.

I'd bet the percentage of cops that shoot competition is higher than you think. Maybe not way higher, but I'd guess it would top 5%. It's probably not a big topic of conversation among LEO that a fair handful practice their gun handling at Steel Challenge, USPSA and IDPA matches?

Personally, I have shot competition with State, IMPD, County Sheriffs, FBI, DEA. On top of few out of state LEO's and likely a fair amount who did not discuss their professions.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If statistics is the overriding factor, then the vast majority of people don't even need to carry a gun.

Lies, damned lies and statistics, as they say.

And now I'm really confused as to the value of standardization of brand in striker fired pistols, if you're just gonna roll with a wheelgun anyway.

If there is one thing I'm sure of, it's that "ease of admin handling" is one of the silliest things I've ever heard when considering criteria for the selection of a defensive handgun while traveling.

Airlines don't let you fly with loaded magazines. I can stop in the bathroom after luggage pickup, load and close the cylinder, and be armed before I hit the taxi stand or rental car booth. I do not have to load magazines, I do not have to worry about the sound of a slide racking freaking anyone out, I do not have to ease a slide forward and then verify it's fully seated, etc.

I can do the same in reverse when arriving at the airport to fly home without having to unload magazines, etc.

I've yet to find a guy dead with an empty revolver in his hand. I don't care about hypotheticals, I've got plenty of real world to back my choices with.

When's the last time you flew with a checked handgun at what point did you arm up? Is it better to have a working gun with 5 shots on you or a gun in pieces in your luggage if you need it?

The point of standardizing is primarily one of familiarity and logistics. I won't reach for the wrong place for the magazine release on a revolver for the obvious reasons. I standardize on Ruger revolvers for wheel gun carry and wouldn't add something with a pull backward cylinder release.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have often wondered in recent years how much difference the "comfort" angle makes vs quality range time and coaching to become familiar with pistols overall?

It can make some minor differences, particularly in recoil control. The sort of differences that are measurable and can make differences in competition shoots but are meaningless in defensive shootings. It's fairly easy to shoot faster then you can make decisions, and once you are at that point what's a .0X difference in split times gaining you?

Familiarity matters more, particularly in time to first shot and a good index with a presentation.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

When you have multiple assailants in your home capacity is more important as you may need several well placed shots (or not so well placed in the case of a shotgun) to stop them (why my home defense pistol has 19+1).

It isn't unless the home invasion falls under the targeted violence heading. Most random "home invasions" are actually burglaries that turn into robberies when the burglar is surprised. Burglars want to live to burgle another day. Particularly with a long gun, everyone who fired one won. Didn't matter if they hit or not, a single shotgun or rifle blast cleared the house of bad actors.

Some people lost by presenting a firearm and not firing it, but nobody died with an empty gun in their hand, even if it was a single barrel shotgun.

Now, again, targeted looks different. The crazy ex planning a rape then murder/suicide is much harder to psychologically stop then the random burglar.

 

[Route 45]

Airlines don't let you fly with loaded magazines. I can stop in the bathroom after luggage pickup, load and close the cylinder, and be armed before I hit the taxi stand or rental car booth. I do not have to load magazines, I do not have to worry about the sound of a slide racking freaking anyone out, I do not have to ease a slide forward and then verify it's fully seated, etc.

I can do the same in reverse when arriving at the airport to fly home without having to unload magazines, etc.

When's the last time you flew with a checked handgun at what point did you arm up? Is it better to have a working gun with 5 shots on you or a gun in pieces in your luggage if you need it?

Well, you've got me beat between the bathroom and the rental car. You seem to enjoy statistics, do you have any statistics on how many defensive firearm uses there are between bathrooms and rental cars at airports? I'm guessing it's pretty low. So low, in fact, that I'd err on the side of having more capacity in a similar sized platform for the rest of my trip, and just wait until I get to my rental car to load up.

I've yet to find a guy dead with an empty revolver in his hand. I don't care about hypotheticals, I've got plenty of real world to back my choices with.

The only real world defensive counter that matters is the one you haven't experienced yet. You do you, but I'm going to hedge my bet with a bit more capacity and much better sights/shootability in a similar sized package. Doesn't surprise me that you didn't see any empty revolvers, as I didn't see nearly as many revolvers on the job as I did semiautos. I'll say it again...lies, damned lies and statistics. There's a reason that saying exists. There's always an exception to the statistics, but there is NEVER a case where it's a bad thing to have more capacity.

I standardize on Ruger revolvers for wheel gun carry and wouldn't add something with a pull backward cylinder release.

Does the LCR still skip a cylinder without firing if you short stroke the trigger? I know mine did. Haven't owned one in several years though. Maybe they fixed that issue. But like you said, capacity doesn't matter, so...

 

[bwframe]

It can make some minor differences, particularly in recoil control. The sort of differences that are measurable and can make differences in competition shoots but are meaningless in defensive shootings. It's fairly easy to shoot faster then you can make decisions, and once you are at that point what's a .0X difference in split times gaining you?

Familiarity matters more, particularly in time to first shot and a good index with a presentation.

365 will have better recoil control than a G19, given all the same circumstances?

When's the last time you flew with a checked handgun at what point did you arm up? Is it better to have a working gun with 5 shots on you or a gun in pieces in your luggage if you need it?

I walked 15ish yards out the luggage pickup door in Philly. Cracked my luggage open, with people moving around me like ants. I did work close to my body to keep a low profile, but it's amazing how little people watch others. 1911 was loaded and on the belt quick. Mags in pocket vs on the belt. Admin load for the Barney round with the gun in the holster.

Ready for anything in Philly.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

365 will have better recoil control than a G19, given all the same circumstances?

I was just addressing the "grip angle" in general, not any two specific guns. Of course weight, etc. will also matter between any two given models.

Well, you've got me beat between the bathroom and the rental car. You seem to enjoy statistics, do you have any statistics on how many defensive firearm uses there are between bathrooms and rental cars at airports? I'm guessing it's pretty low. So low, in fact, that I'd err on the side of having more capacity in a similar sized platform for the rest of my trip, and just wait until I get to my rental car to load up.


The only real world defensive counter that matters is the one you haven't experienced yet. You do you, but I'm going to hedge my bet with a bit more capacity and much better sights/shootability in a similar sized package. Doesn't surprise me that you didn't see any empty revolvers, as I didn't see nearly as many revolvers on the job as I did semiautos. I'll say it again...lies, damned lies and statistics. There's a reason that saying exists. There's always an exception to the statistics, but there is NEVER a case where it's a bad thing to have more capacity.


Does the LCR still skip a cylinder without firing if you short stroke the trigger? I know mine did. Haven't owned one in several years though. Maybe they fixed that issue.

Well, San Antonio airport had an incident fairly recently, so greater than zero. I'll not argue a more capable gun isn't better, but sometimes more concealable and easier to carry trumps the one in a billion worry I'll be some extreme outlier. Same reason I don't wear concealable body armor daily. If you want to carry something else, do it. I'm not concerned.

As far as the LCR, I've swapped out the OEM sights. It's no trouble to hold a 2" shot group at 7y and it's no trouble to make torso shots at 50-75y in various lighting conditions. I'm definitely better with a P220, faster, easier on moving targets, etc. I don't think hardware will be what makes the difference in a random violence encounter, though.

That said, I hope I end up loving the 43X and red dot. Nothing wrong with more capability if everything else fits.

 

[bwframe]

...That said, I hope I end up loving the 43X and red dot. Nothing wrong with more capability if everything else fits...

Hoping you'll post on how the 43x/dot works for you.

 

[Route 45]

365 will have better recoil control than a G19, given all the same circumstances?

Maybe. Depends on the person. I have a G19, and I'd much rather spend the day shooting my P365 than the G19. The Glock grip really doesn't fit me well, and the gun bangs the hell out of my middle finger knuckle with anything other than powder puff loads. Unless I really pay attention to wrap my hand further around the grip, which feels awkward. So while the Glock is a bit heavier than a P365 (about 7 ounces or so), it doesn't handle recoil as comfortably for me.

I should clarify. I do use the P365xl grip module, so I'm comparing full grip to full grip. I don't care for pinky dangler pistols, no matter what brand is on the slide. Using the 12 round mag with the standard P365 gets you the same grip length, but not exactly the same feel as the P365xl grip module, which I prefer. My P365 10 round mags are collecting dust in a drawer somewhere around here.

 

[WebSnyper]

Two of the most uncomfortable words in the English language, despite not being vulgar in and of themselves, are girth and moist.

Eh, neither of those words hold any trepidation for me generally, but I just knew if I typed out girth the thread would take even a quicker descent than it did.