Sig P220 and Wolf KaBoom

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  • mammynun

    Master
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    10   0   0
    Oct 30, 2009
    3,380
    48
    New Albany
    This is just the facts as I'm not really sure how I feel about this yet.

    12/26/09 I go to Henryville to shoot. I take my P220 Compact, Taurus 24/7 9mm and PT1911. Finding .45ACP around here is not easy, so I scored 500 rounds of Wolf from ammunition to go. I also had Blazer and some WWB. I bought the P220 new on 10/27/09, it has around 1000 rounds through it, the PT1911 has approx 2000. Switching between al 3 pistols, I get to my 9th 8 round mag in the Sig, and KaBoom:

    PC262130.jpg


    PC262119.jpg


    PC262124.jpg


    PC262128.jpg


    Emailed Wolf on 12/26, they replied today offering to replace the remaining ammo at no cost to me, and want to know what "the gunsmith" says.

    Talked to Sig this morning on the phone. They do not want to see pictures, they want me to send it in at my expense for repair.

    I believe that it was an ammo issue, and I like that Wolf want to test my ammo and replace what I have left (around 100 rounds, I still have to look). While I'm pretty sure that the Sig had nothing to do with the KaBoom, the way that Sig handled it makes me wonder what benefit a person derives from purchasing a Sig over any other quality firearm. At any rate, I buy spare part for all my firearms, so I replaced the trigger bar spring and ordered a grip panel from Brownells for <$20, which is about a 1/3 of what it would have cost me just to send it back to Sig. BTW, the case was stuck in the chamber pretty well; I tried tapping it out with a dowel and the bottom came off. I don't have a .45 case extractor (shoulda ordered one from Brownells! Doh!), but a jag and a patch with Rem oil around the case got it out.

    Like I said, Sig CS let a bad taste in my mouth... but I may have had unrealistic expectations as I've never had to deal with them before. I'm still on the fence.
     

    KokomoDave

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    71   0   0
    Oct 20, 2008
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    Kokomo
    Well,being a Sig armorer,I have to tell you that you messed up by removing said round from chamber.The reason that Sig has the customer send the gun on their dime,is that there are soooo many instances of guys/gals/gunsmiths screwing with a gun and then blaming the manufacturer.They WILL re-imburse you the money plus get a hold of Wolf for an evaluation of what went wrong.Can't do that if you removed the round.If it is the case of a round that went KB because the slide wasn't fully in-battery but far enough to contact the drop safety,it is Sig's fault.If it was a under/over charge,then they bill Wolf.They WILL fix your weapon + NDT/magnaflux to make sure it is serviceable.If not,they will replace it.

    :twocents:

    I would be happy to look at it free of charge if you like and give you my evaluation for serviceability.

    BTW-your primer strike looks very deep also.
     

    mammynun

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    10   0   0
    Oct 30, 2009
    3,380
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    New Albany
    Well,being a Sig armorer,I have to tell you that you messed up by removing said round from chamber.The reason that Sig has the customer send the gun on their dime,is that there are soooo many instances of guys/gals/gunsmiths screwing with a gun and then blaming the manufacturer.They WILL re-imburse you the money plus get a hold of Wolf for an evaluation of what went wrong.Can't do that if you removed the round.If it is the case of a round that went KB because the slide wasn't fully in-battery but far enough to contact the drop safety,it is Sig's fault.If it was a under/over charge,then they bill Wolf.They WILL fix your weapon + NDT/magnaflux to make sure it is serviceable.If not,they will replace it.

    :twocents:

    That's why I left the round in the chamber until after I talked to Sig. The lady I spoke to said that there would be no problem taking the round out, so I did. She really didn't seem interested at all. I also asked if they could give me the name of a Sig armorer in my area, and was told that they could not. My only real concern is that I can't see what magnafluxing can see (I used to have dirt bike parts magnafluxed), but all I got on the phone was "send it in." Now I'm starting to get pissed.
     

    mammynun

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    10   0   0
    Oct 30, 2009
    3,380
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    New Albany
    How is your hand?

    It stung for a few minutes and had some powder marks, no big deal. Two little zit-like marks on my face. When I was stationed at Ft Bragg, I had a M-249 SAW cook of just as I was performing immediate action on it. That sucked a LOT more... I was picking brass fragments out of my face for a long time afterwards. Thanks for asking!
     
    Last edited:

    swmp9jrm

    Sharpshooter
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    0   0   0
    Sep 19, 2008
    398
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    NCO
    mammynun: any chance you could post the lot number of the Wolf you were shooting? I've got about 500 rounds of Wolf myself - and a P220 Carry. I've shot a couple of boxes of the stuff without any issues, but I'd be interested to know if my stash is in the same time frame. I got mine from AIM.

    Thanks if you have the lot number. Glad to hear you're okay.
     

    mammynun

    Master
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    10   0   0
    Oct 30, 2009
    3,380
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    New Albany
    mammynun: any chance you could post the lot number of the Wolf you were shooting? I've got about 500 rounds of Wolf myself - and a P220 Carry. I've shot a couple of boxes of the stuff without any issues, but I'd be interested to know if my stash is in the same time frame. I got mine from AIM.

    Thanks if you have the lot number. Glad to hear you're okay.

    Lot # for Wolf is 1273 09. As it turns out, the 472th round is the one that let go as I only have 28 rounds left. Here's the round in question.

    PC282159.jpg


    PC282163.jpg


    PC282164.jpg


    PC282165.jpg


    PC282166.jpg


    I can accept that I shouldn't have taken the case out of the chamber (that was my 1st instinct), but it sure would have been nice to have been told that they would pick up the shipping and charge Wolf if it was found to be ammo related. What I was told is that if it was ammo related was that it would not be covered under warranty and it would be fine to remove it. But yeah, I should have just sent it back and ate the shipping charge. and the inspection fee. and the parts. and the return shipping.
     

    OneBadV8

    Stay Picky my Friends
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    50   0   0
    Aug 7, 2008
    45,536
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    Ft Wayne
    At least you had a metal frame protecting your hand. It could have been a lot worse, I hope everything works out with the gun and its still functional.
     

    Indy_Guy_77

    Grandmaster
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    16   0   0
    Apr 30, 2008
    16,576
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    Just wondering...

    With the barrel out of the pistol, can you photograph how a round/case fits into the chamber?

    Looks to me like the BOOM happened at the bottom, immediately ahead of the feed ramp?

    -J-
     

    swmp9jrm

    Sharpshooter
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    0   0   0
    Sep 19, 2008
    398
    16
    NCO
    I just talked to my brother about this, and he inspected a box of the Wolf .45ACP he has. He found one round in the first box that has about an 1/8 inch larger setback than the rest of the rounds in the box (OAL is about 1/8" less). Would this be enough to cause the KABOOM? I'm working on trying to get some pics, and I'm going to check all my boxes of Wolf and Tula when I get home.

    Here's the pic of the short round:

    iv9zxf.jpg
     
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    mammynun

    Master
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    10   0   0
    Oct 30, 2009
    3,380
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    New Albany
    I just talked to my brother about this, and he inspected a box of the Wolf .45ACP he has. He found one round in the first box that has about an 1/8 inch larger setback than the rest of the rounds in the box (OAL is about 1/8" less). Would this be enough to cause the KABOOM? I'm working on trying to get some pics, and I'm going to check all my boxes of Wolf and Tula when I get home.

    Here's the pic of the short round:

    iv9zxf.jpg

    I'd like to think I'd notice that when loading a mag, but maybe I didn't. And I bet it would only take one! The few remaining rounds that I have look OK, but I'll mic them when I take some pics of a round in the chamber for Indy Guy 77. I think I have (insert the animal phylum of your choice here) flu. bleck.

    Same lot #?
     
    Last edited:

    sjstill

    Master
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    46   0   0
    Mar 24, 2008
    1,580
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    Indy (west)
    Oh yeah, bullet setback can an will cause a major pressure spike when fired. Happened to me with a Glock 22 and a 180 grain reload.

    I personally witnessed a gent with a Sig P220 using A-MERC ammo have about 16 out of 50 rounds setback when chambering. I think I still have them.

    Never seen setback with Wolf though First time for everything.
     

    scheesman

    Sharpshooter
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    2   0   0
    Nov 22, 2009
    332
    16
    Indy
    I just talked to my brother about this, and he inspected a box of the Wolf .45ACP he has. He found one round in the first box that has about an 1/8 inch larger setback than the rest of the rounds in the box (OAL is about 1/8" less). Would this be enough to cause the KABOOM?
    Although it's difficult to tell just looking at it (minimum OAL varies) I would be very concerned when compared to the "normal" round! If it is set back enough, it could cause compression problems which could cause the problems you had. Does the Sig have an unsupported section of chamber? I would guess if it does, that's where the meltdown occurred. The other theory is that the "short" one is normal and the "long" one is too long, not allowing the bullet to fully chamber and causing an OOB situation.

    Also, if it is set back too far, could the crimp be too much because of the increase bullet taper and also add to any pressure issues?
     

    groovatron

    Master
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    6   0   0
    Oct 9, 2009
    3,270
    38
    calumet township
    wow...I have never seen factory setback like that before. Kind of freaks me out. It seems like I would notice that while loading a mag...but you never know. Just goes to show that you always have to stay aware of your equipment and ammo. I used to get reloads from a guy and was nervous at first because IMO you have to trust someone a great deal to use their personal reloads. To check for consistent bullet seating, I would place something flat (like an index card) on top of the ammo while they were in a case. You can do it from the primer side or the bullet side. If all the rounds made contact with the card, I felt comfortable with the consistency. Occaisonally I would get a slight difference with a few rounds. I would then measure the suspect rounds against the consistent ones. I have never seen one that had an 1/8" diference. That's huge....and very dangerous!
     

    WOLFEMAN

    Sharpshooter
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    8   0   0
    Jan 26, 2009
    418
    16
    LAFAYETTE
    There is a lot of horor stories about Wolf ammo. Hard to
    prove, but many manufactures recomend not shooting
    steel case ammo....ie.....Wolf
     

    swmp9jrm

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 19, 2008
    398
    16
    NCO
    Okay - my brother went through about 1000 rounds of Wolf .45ACP and found only that one round that looked odd. I went through 500 rounds of Wolf .45ACP and 500 rounds of Tula 9mm (Wolf headstamp) and found no odd rounds. My lot of Wolf .45ACP is 1256 09, which I would assume is a little older than what mammynun has.

    I sometimes get a little lax in looking at my ammo before I load it - that ain't gonna happen again!!!
     
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