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  • DadSmith

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    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
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    The VAAAAAST majority of Glock NDs have been just that: NEGLIGENT discharges. People failing to properly clear the firearm before pulling the trigger to disassemble for cleaning. That operator error when it really comes down to it. Is the need to pull the trigger for disassembly a design flaw? I’d argue strongly that it could be, yes. However, the fact remains that if the firearm is properly cleared and the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction, NONE of those NDs would have occurred. Faults on both sides.

    I’m not personally aware of any Glocks discharging themselves when holsters unless there was an obstruction of some form that pulled the trigger. Which is why I use an SCD on mine, just in case.

    Anyway, just wanted to clarify that point. I’m NOT a Sig hater either, I LOVE the P220/226/228/229 and the other classic Sigs. I AM a bit of a P320 hater. It’s just a poor design.
    If you start cleaning your firearm and it is still loaded that's your fault not a design flaw but a user end problem.

    How does one go about shooting a firearm that is supposed to be unloaded unless they failed to unload it?
     

    Skip

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    0   0   0
    Jan 29, 2010
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    12 miles from Michigan
    The VAAAAAST majority of Glock NDs have been just that: NEGLIGENT discharges. People failing to properly clear the firearm before pulling the trigger to disassemble for cleaning. That operator error when it really comes down to it. Is the need to pull the trigger for disassembly a design flaw? I’d argue strongly that it could be, yes. However, the fact remains that if the firearm is properly cleared and the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction, NONE of those NDs would have occurred. Faults on both sides.

    I’m not personally aware of any Glocks discharging themselves when holsters unless there was an obstruction of some form that pulled the trigger. Which is why I use an SCD on mine, just in case.

    Anyway, just wanted to clarify that point. I’m NOT an Sig hater either, I LOVE the P220/226/228/229 and the other classic Sigs. I AM a bit of a P320 hater. It’s just a poor design.
    Because pulling the trigger to disassemble a firearm isn’t a poor design?
    Engineering school for you Bro.!

    I’ve never washed a dish that was still full of food. I ALWAYS empty them first.

    Now, as far as design hating….. Not me either. I‘ve got plenty “Glock” action pistols…..

    Get a quick look. Image to disappear soon…. ;)
     
    Last edited:

    deo62

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    17   0   0
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    If you start cleaning your firearm and it is still loaded that's your fault not a design flaw but a user end problem.

    How does one go about shooting a firearm that is supposed to be unloaded unless they failed to unload it?
    Maybe we should ask Mr Baldwin
     

    Basher

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    12   0   0
    May 3, 2022
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    Lafayette
    If you start cleaning your firearm and it is still loaded that's your fault not a design flaw but a user end problem.

    How does one go about shooting a firearm that is supposed to be unloaded unless they failed to unload it?

    Technically, you are correct. From a purely mechanical standpoint, it’s not a flawed design.

    However, when you factor in the human element, a design that requires you to essentially break a basic rule of firearm safety to disassemble it is considered to have an inferior design. Y’all can argue with me all you want, but this is the truth.

    In aviation, we’ve learned the same thing at a similar cost of life. One of the helis I fly has a trim knob located on the same panel as the mixture control. For the non-pilots among us, you turn a reciprocating aircraft engine off by fully leaning the mixture, therefore starving the engine of fuel and it stops running. In an airplane, if you accidentally pull the mixture and the engine stops, the solution is usually very simple: push the mixture back in, and airflow over the prop will windmill it, basically “hand propping” the plane for you. As soon as it turns a few times with the mixture on, enough fuel is drawn in to the cylinders that they fire and the engine starts again. Easy peasy.

    Not so in a helicopter. We have a sprag clutch that allows the rotors to keep turning when the engine stops so we can autorotate and land safely in the event of an engine failure. This means if you lean the mixture to the point the engine quits, your only option to restart the engine is to richen the mixture again and then turn the key or push the starter button, making you rely on the starter to get the engine running again. From 500’ AGL, you basically won’t have time to do that, meaning you’re committed to an engine out landing.

    Why am I telling you this? Because putting those two controls near each other is perfectly fine from a mechanical standpoint. But when you introduce the human element, what you find is that new pilots can mistake the two and pull the mixture when they mean to pull the trim knob, killing the engine and, sometimes, the occupants. That’s a “design flaw” from a human element standpoint.

    The solution was the manufacturer introduced a special cover for the mixture knob that must be removed before the knob can be pulled out. Instructors also teach a specific way to reach for each control to help avoid the mixup. Glock’s design is a similar issue. Mechanically speaking, it’s 100% fine. But when you introduce the potential for human error, it becomes a flaw.

    An engineer is not a human factors expert. They often do take the human element into account, but modern engineering regularly drops the ball there. An engineer may design something that is technically perfect because, in their mind, they would never do XYZ. But when you put non-engineer, regular folk in their place, XYZ becomes a real possibility.

    I love my Glocks and trust them far more than the P320 design. But you must be vigilant when using them because if YOU slip up, someone may get hurt. This applies to any firearm but those that can be disassembled without pulling the trigger remove risk from the cleaning process if someone is negligent and doesn’t clear the firearm first.
     

    BE Mike

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    16   0   0
    Jul 23, 2008
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    Technically, you are correct. From a purely mechanical standpoint, it’s not a flawed design.

    However, when you factor in the human element, a design that requires you to essentially break a basic rule of firearm safety to disassemble it is considered to have an inferior design. Y’all can argue with me all you want, but this is the truth.

    In aviation, we’ve learned the same thing at a similar cost of life. One of the helis I fly has a trim knob located on the same panel as the mixture control. For the non-pilots among us, you turn a reciprocating aircraft engine off by fully leaning the mixture, therefore starving the engine of fuel and it stops running. In an airplane, if you accidentally pull the mixture and the engine stops, the solution is usually very simple: push the mixture back in, and airflow over the prop will windmill it, basically “hand propping” the plane for you. As soon as it turns a few times with the mixture on, enough fuel is drawn in to the cylinders that they fire and the engine starts again. Easy peasy.

    Not so in a helicopter. We have a sprag clutch that allows the rotors to keep turning when the engine stops so we can autorotate and land safely in the event of an engine failure. This means if you lean the mixture to the point the engine quits, your only option to restart the engine is to richen the mixture again and then turn the key or push the starter button, making you rely on the starter to get the engine running again. From 500’ AGL, you basically won’t have time to do that, meaning you’re committed to an engine out landing.

    Why am I telling you this? Because putting those two controls near each other is perfectly fine from a mechanical standpoint. But when you introduce the human element, what you find is that new pilots can mistake the two and pull the mixture when they mean to pull the trim knob, killing the engine and, sometimes, the occupants. That’s a “design flaw” from a human element standpoint.

    The solution was the manufacturer introduced a special cover for the mixture knob that must be removed before the knob can be pulled out. Instructors also teach a specific way to reach for each control to help avoid the mixup. Glock’s design is a similar issue. Mechanically speaking, it’s 100% fine. But when you introduce the potential for human error, it becomes a flaw.

    An engineer is not a human factors expert. They often do take the human element into account, but modern engineering regularly drops the ball there. An engineer may design something that is technically perfect because, in their mind, they would never do XYZ. But when you put non-engineer, regular folk in their place, XYZ becomes a real possibility.

    I love my Glocks and trust them far more than the P320 design. But you must be vigilant when using them because if YOU slip up, someone may get hurt. This applies to any firearm but those that can be disassembled without pulling the trigger remove risk from the cleaning process if someone is negligent and doesn’t clear the firearm first.
    Must be a Robinson. Their biggest advantage is low cost. Did they ever address that mast bumping issue?
     
    Last edited:

    88E30M50

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    12   0   0
    Dec 29, 2008
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    This thread held promise but really got derailed fast.

    A year or two ago, I decided to focus on my Sig P229 for range and carry. I theorized that if I focused on shooting just one gun for a year, I'd come away with better skills with my carry gun than if I did my usual practice of just shooting whatever tickled my fancy that day.

    I think that I lasted about a month before I started to take other guns to the range again. I really should give that a try again. Maybe this time, actually train with just one gun, but allowing myself to enjoy others.
     

    LtScott14

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    Apr 13, 2008
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    Porter County
    Currently own a Sig226, 9mm. No issues. Glock19-3, no issues. S&W 442, no issues. S&W M10-5, no issues. Sig 320, owned and traded off. Too many bad reports and issues. Nope, not in my rotation, not that sold on those models.
    Carry whatever you like. Just shoot it and clean it properly.
    Good luck.
     

    Basher

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    12   0   0
    May 3, 2022
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    Must be a Robinson. Their biggest advantage is low cost. Did they ever address that mast bumping issue?

    The “mast bumping issue” is a (wait for it) design flaw/limitation of every semi-rigid rotor system, not just Robbies. So yes, they addressed it. With a placard that says “Low-G Pushovers Prohibited.” :abused: Don’t get in to low-g, and you’ll basically never encounter mast bumping.
     

    Basher

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    12   0   0
    May 3, 2022
    842
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    Lafayette
    This thread held promise but really got derailed fast.

    A year or two ago, I decided to focus on my Sig P229 for range and carry. I theorized that if I focused on shooting just one gun for a year, I'd come away with better skills with my carry gun than if I did my usual practice of just shooting whatever tickled my fancy that day.

    I think that I lasted about a month before I started to take other guns to the range again. I really should give that a try again. Maybe this time, actually train with just one gun, but allowing myself to enjoy others.

    Chief Thread Derailed here, checking in!

    Sorry, I realize my sarcastic antics threw us off, my apologies. I’ll shut up now and let the OP document his year of Sig carry. I do hope he keeps us posted and does a better job of it than you seem to have lol.
     

    Skip

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    0   0   0
    Jan 29, 2010
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    12 miles from Michigan
    This thread held promise but really got derailed fast.

    A year or two ago, I decided to focus on my Sig P229 for range and carry. I theorized that if I focused on shooting just one gun for a year, I'd come away with better skills with my carry gun than if I did my usual practice of just shooting whatever tickled my fancy that day.

    I think that I lasted about a month before I started to take other guns to the range again. I really should give that a try again. Maybe this time, actually train with just one gun, but allowing myself to enjoy others.
    Yeah, some folks just like being…. Turds…
    Anyway, I am thinking rthe same right along with you. We’ll see how it goes.
     

    BE Mike

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    16   0   0
    Jul 23, 2008
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    The “mast bumping issue” is a (wait for it) design flaw/limitation of every semi-rigid rotor system, not just Robbies. So yes, they addressed it. With a placard that says “Low-G Pushovers Prohibited.” :abused: Don’t get in to low-g, and you’ll basically never encounter mast bumping.

    The “mast bumping issue” is a (wait for it) design flaw/limitation of every semi-rigid rotor system, not just Robbies. So yes, they addressed it. With a placard that says “Low-G Pushovers Prohibited.” :abused: Don’t get in to low-g, and you’ll basically never encounter mast bumping.
    Yeah, I actually know a little about that issue and helicopters. You fly Robinsons which have a tendency to mast bump and you think that Sig P320's have a design flaw and avoid them? Interesting.
     

    Sigblitz

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    5   0   0
    Aug 25, 2018
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    I have been really interested in the P365. A family member has one and really likes it. I stopped at the gun counter a couple times to talk myself into one but they weren't in stock.
     

    Basher

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    12   0   0
    May 3, 2022
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    Edit: deleted my comment, I’m done derailing the OP’s thread. Take it to PM if you want to debate facts.

    @Skip I apologize for my playful/sarcastic comment derailing the thread.
     
    Last edited:

    cedartop

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    Apr 25, 2010
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    North of Notre Dame.
    Anecdotal Sig (especially 320) content. I shot my first IDPA match of the season today. I used my 320 X-Carry Legion with Custom Shop slide. I have been very critical of this guns accuracy, especially as it relates to my Walther Q5 and Staccato, but for the task at hand it was fine. It ran the whole match without issues, even though at various points I got mud in my mags which I just knocked out by tapping them on my knees and calling it good. The only way I can say the gun negatively affected my match in any way is the weak reset which is endemic to the 320. Even with a + trigger return spring I have to be very careful to not let the reset slow me down, compared to other guns I shoot.

    There were many other Sig 320's shot in the match. My coworker with his AXG Pro had no issues. His gun is stock except the trigger shoe. I saw at least 1 X5 that has had work done to it cause multiple issues during the match. Issues, as in lots of tap racks. Two Deputies from the local SD shot the match in their SWAT gear with what I assume was their stock (though I don't know that) issue 320's. I only saw 2 stages of them and one had no issues. The other multiple (like 4 on one stage) tap racks with his. That is not good for a duty gun and I sincerely hope he gets that taken care of. It is entirely possible it could be an ammo issue but I don't know.

    So as I see it, like many other designs, if you keep your Sig relatively stock, it is probably going to do just fine.
     
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