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  • cedartop

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,728
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    North of Notre Dame.
    I actually think you're less likely to get hurt playing those games with serious martial artists than with the average, 200+lb untrained guy on the street.

    I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear the injury rate has gone down as the students training backgrounds deepen.
    There could be some validity to that.
     

    turnandshoot4

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jan 29, 2008
    8,633
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    Kouts
    This is the most important metric. You learned and it worked in real life. You can't get more value than that from a course

    I didn't have very much experience when I took it, but it was several years ago. I'd have check my notebook for the date. Maybe 7 years ago.

    I'd say it was 50/50 between people with considerable grappling training and those without. Maybe its not the issue I imagine. I just see the people who follow him going deep into it. One thing Craig does well, though, is pair people up so both benefit.

    I've taken it 3 times over the past 9 years.

    My observations:
    First time I went 9 years ago I was doing basement jiujitsu with buddies, boxing for a gym, and training as many draw and shoots as I could. Got paired up with a "small business owner" and a crossfit guy in my 2 on 1. The "small business owner" turned out to be a JJ black belt. Got stomped pretty bad on that one. Had a much bigger FBI guy that trained muai thai for my 1 v 1. Passed his guard on top and triangle choked him on the 2nd. A few people in that class had *some* JJ, but not many. The black belt was magic. Craig was a purple belt in JJ at the time.

    Second time 5 years ago (I think) I went with a group of my instructors. All of my guys were a smattering of JJ multiple stripe white belts, I was blue. Multiple blurple belts in class. Tons more JJ in the 1 v 1. If you didn't have cardio or at least 6 months of JJ, you were getting smoked. Partially because they'd gas out. 2 v 1 was with my own guys so it was normal for us.

    Third time 2 years ago class had multiple black belts. I brought my instructor group which was almost all blue. People who ran their own youtube channels doing JJ and self defense oriented things were in class as well. My 2 v 1 was with shivworks alums that had double digit Craig classes under their belts. No fighting, I talked my way out of it. Many more gals in this one (5?). All JJ gals. My female instructor got paired with a larger but not JJ guy. Thought she was going to take his arm off with an omoplata. We did have a "classically" trained pistol guy that screamed at the target after each drill that we shot for about 3 drills. "HELP! THEY JUST TRIED TO KILL ME. SOMEONE CALL THE POLICE. I NEED MEDICAL ATTENTION!" That guy opted out of the grappling.

    While we didn't have 2 people pulling guard at the same time, it was definitely a huge rise in Jiu Jitsu at the same location many years apart. (I have always went to Cincinnati) Craig has seemed to start to reel people in on the hard jiu jitsu focus of classes as this is more wrestling based.
     

    Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,343
    63
    West side of Indy
    I've taken it 3 times over the past 9 years.

    My observations:
    First time I went 9 years ago I was doing basement jiujitsu with buddies, boxing for a gym, and training as many draw and shoots as I could. Got paired up with a "small business owner" and a crossfit guy in my 2 on 1. The "small business owner" turned out to be a JJ black belt. Got stomped pretty bad on that one. Had a much bigger FBI guy that trained muai thai for my 1 v 1. Passed his guard on top and triangle choked him on the 2nd. A few people in that class had *some* JJ, but not many. The black belt was magic. Craig was a purple belt in JJ at the time.

    Second time 5 years ago (I think) I went with a group of my instructors. All of my guys were a smattering of JJ multiple stripe white belts, I was blue. Multiple blurple belts in class. Tons more JJ in the 1 v 1. If you didn't have cardio or at least 6 months of JJ, you were getting smoked. Partially because they'd gas out. 2 v 1 was with my own guys so it was normal for us.

    Third time 2 years ago class had multiple black belts. I brought my instructor group which was almost all blue. People who ran their own youtube channels doing JJ and self defense oriented things were in class as well. My 2 v 1 was with shivworks alums that had double digit Craig classes under their belts. No fighting, I talked my way out of it. Many more gals in this one (5?). All JJ gals. My female instructor got paired with a larger but not JJ guy. Thought she was going to take his arm off with an omoplata. We did have a "classically" trained pistol guy that screamed at the target after each drill that we shot for about 3 drills. "HELP! THEY JUST TRIED TO KILL ME. SOMEONE CALL THE POLICE. I NEED MEDICAL ATTENTION!" That guy opted out of the grappling.

    While we didn't have 2 people pulling guard at the same time, it was definitely a huge rise in Jiu Jitsu at the same location many years apart. (I have always went to Cincinnati) Craig has seemed to start to reel people in on the hard jiu jitsu focus of classes as this is more wrestling based.

    I feel like this trend has good and bad points. Obviously, as the average skill level goes up, the overall field of weapons grappling advances. The better the competition, the more advancement you get in the state of the art.

    The downsides are that grappling with an experienced person feels significantly different from Grappling with someone who is big and strong but has never grappled before. If two jiu jitsu guys are playing jiu jitsu, that may be less realistic.

    Then the people getting gassed and run over by guys who grapple multiple times a week may not be getting much out of it.
     

    jsharmon7

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    119   0   0
    Nov 24, 2008
    7,846
    113
    Freedonia
    I feel like this trend has good and bad points. Obviously, as the average skill level goes up, the overall field of weapons grappling advances. The better the competition, the more advancement you get in the state of the art.

    The downsides are that grappling with an experienced person feels significantly different from Grappling with someone who is big and strong but has never grappled before. If two jiu jitsu guys are playing jiu jitsu, that may be less realistic.

    Then the people getting gassed and run over by guys who grapple multiple times a week may not be getting much out of it.
    Anyone who has trained with a big, spazzy white belt knows it presents different challenges than rolling with someone who is a bit more predictable.
     

    MinuteManMike

    Expert
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    Oct 28, 2008
    1,101
    83
    Lawrence, IN
    For anyone that's done this... where should I start? I have a good amount of gun classes but zero martial arts / fighting experience. I really want to change this.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    26,297
    113
    For anyone that's done this... where should I start? I have a good amount of gun classes but zero martial arts / fighting experience. I really want to change this.

    How's your cardio and general fitness level? If it's solid, I think most guys will recommend starting with wrestling, boxing, or BJJ as you prefer. If it's not solid, start on base line fitness first IMO.
     

    MinuteManMike

    Expert
    Site Supporter
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    5   0   0
    Oct 28, 2008
    1,101
    83
    Lawrence, IN
    I'm way too fat at 220lbs. Like to lose 50lbs, at least. Anyone have a fighting gym in Indianapolis area that's serious about training they can recommend while I try to shed some pounds?
     

    turnandshoot4

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jan 29, 2008
    8,633
    48
    Kouts
    I'm way too fat at 220lbs. Like to lose 50lbs, at least. Anyone have a fighting gym in Indianapolis area that's serious about training they can recommend while I try to shed some pounds?
    If this is the kicker to get you moving and healthy, awesome.
    Even if you are in the best shape of your life, you will still take a ton of positives from this.
     

    Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,343
    63
    West side of Indy
    For anyone that's done this... where should I start? I have a good amount of gun classes but zero martial arts / fighting experience. I really want to change this.
    This is a broad question and there's a few directions I want to go with it. I'm not sure how this will turn out.

    Where should you start as far as taking a Shivworks class, or learning to fight generally?

    It is not a requirement to be fit or know how to fight to sign up for a Shivworks class, and you'll get something out of it even if you have no experience and feel unprepared. You may get much more out of it than someone who is fit and has experience. If you can run and gun in a rifle class or competition, you can get through ECQC. It may also help answer your question about where to start better than any internet discussion possibly could.

    Where should you start as far as joining a martial arts gym? I think this depends on your interests, goals, and temperament. I personally don't think you should wait to get in shape to start training somewhere. Getting in shape and losing weight is a great idea for all kinds of reasons within and beyond this topic, but don't let it hold you back. Its just another excuse. Joining a gym can be part of that process.

    I'm also curious to know what you mean by "fighting gym" and "serious about training"? If you don't have a specific interest in a particular martial art or particular aspect of fighting (like grappling or boxing or kickboxing) and your primary goal is to learn skills you can directly, 1 to 1, apply in a self defense context, there are very few places to go for that. You generally have gyms that teach specific martial arts either from a historical basis (many karate places, hapkido, Aikido, etc) or as part of a competition-focused martial art (BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Kickboxing, MMA, etc). Either way, you'll be learning a lot of things that take months or years to apply with a high level of competency and only apply very generally to the kind of scenario you're dealing with in ECQC. That's not a bad thing, but you have to have the interest and commitment to stay with it, learn the skills, then go and fit them back into the ECQC-type, weapons-based self-defense context and figure out what works and how. For the best results, you will want take this on as a long term project, or even better, a lifestyle.

    So we can all make recommendations about what specific places and which specific skills are important, but maybe the most important part is that you enjoy what you're doing, you like the gym culture, that you feel like it's a place you want to keep going back to. And also that you can find like-minded people who are interested in helping you adapt what you're learning to the context you want to apply it.

    With that in mind, I would recommend you go visit gyms near you and try as many classes as you can in their trial period. Talk to the instructors and the students. Experience them. And go to the place that feels comfortable and you'll keep going back to. It doesn't matter how serious they are about fighting if you only stay a few months.

    As far as what kind of skills to focus on, I prefer gyms that focus on competitive martial arts. Boxing, Kickboxing, BJJ, MMA, Judo, etc. It is easier to adapt sport skills you learn to apply under pressure into a real fight than to apply too-dangerous-for-sport skills you can't practice under pressure when the fight is on.

    Start with whichever type suits your fancy. If you're specifically interested in the ECQC model and approach, standing grappling skills like you'll learn in wrestling, Judo, and to a lesser extent, BJJ are going to be the centerpiece. BJJ is by far the most accessible and prevalent.

    I don't have much experience with gyms on the east side. I've been to Indy Boxing and Grappling once for an open mat and had a good experience. They seemed pretty serious. I have been to and know a couple people from Top Level Gym on the SE side and would recommend them. Also serious from a sport fighting perspective. I currently attend a Judo club on the SE side, but I wouldn't describe it as "a fighting gym" or "serious about training" in the way you may have in mind. It's a hobbyist, traditional Judo spot. You're welcome to come try it out.

    If you want to have a discussion about your specific interests and goals we can expand on that here or you can PM me. I've got plenty of other thoughts floating around in here.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,728
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    This is a broad question and there's a few directions I want to go with it. I'm not sure how this will turn out.

    Where should you start as far as taking a Shivworks class, or learning to fight generally?

    It is not a requirement to be fit or know how to fight to sign up for a Shivworks class, and you'll get something out of it even if you have no experience and feel unprepared. You may get much more out of it than someone who is fit and has experience. If you can run and gun in a rifle class or competition, you can get through ECQC. It may also help answer your question about where to start better than any internet discussion possibly could.

    Where should you start as far as joining a martial arts gym? I think this depends on your interests, goals, and temperament. I personally don't think you should wait to get in shape to start training somewhere. Getting in shape and losing weight is a great idea for all kinds of reasons within and beyond this topic, but don't let it hold you back. Its just another excuse. Joining a gym can be part of that process.

    I'm also curious to know what you mean by "fighting gym" and "serious about training"? If you don't have a specific interest in a particular martial art or particular aspect of fighting (like grappling or boxing or kickboxing) and your primary goal is to learn skills you can directly, 1 to 1, apply in a self defense context, there are very few places to go for that. You generally have gyms that teach specific martial arts either from a historical basis (many karate places, hapkido, Aikido, etc) or as part of a competition-focused martial art (BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Kickboxing, MMA, etc). Either way, you'll be learning a lot of things that take months or years to apply with a high level of competency and only apply very generally to the kind of scenario you're dealing with in ECQC. That's not a bad thing, but you have to have the interest and commitment to stay with it, learn the skills, then go and fit them back into the ECQC-type, weapons-based self-defense context and figure out what works and how. For the best results, you will want take this on as a long term project, or even better, a lifestyle.

    So we can all make recommendations about what specific places and which specific skills are important, but maybe the most important part is that you enjoy what you're doing, you like the gym culture, that you feel like it's a place you want to keep going back to. And also that you can find like-minded people who are interested in helping you adapt what you're learning to the context you want to apply it.

    With that in mind, I would recommend you go visit gyms near you and try as many classes as you can in their trial period. Talk to the instructors and the students. Experience them. And go to the place that feels comfortable and you'll keep going back to. It doesn't matter how serious they are about fighting if you only stay a few months.

    As far as what kind of skills to focus on, I prefer gyms that focus on competitive martial arts. Boxing, Kickboxing, BJJ, MMA, Judo, etc. It is easier to adapt sport skills you learn to apply under pressure into a real fight than to apply too-dangerous-for-sport skills you can't practice under pressure when the fight is on.

    Start with whichever type suits your fancy. If you're specifically interested in the ECQC model and approach, standing grappling skills like you'll learn in wrestling, Judo, and to a lesser extent, BJJ are going to be the centerpiece. BJJ is by far the most accessible and prevalent.

    I don't have much experience with gyms on the east side. I've been to Indy Boxing and Grappling once for an open mat and had a good experience. They seemed pretty serious. I have been to and know a couple people from Top Level Gym on the SE side and would recommend them. Also serious from a sport fighting perspective. I currently attend a Judo club on the SE side, but I wouldn't describe it as "a fighting gym" or "serious about training" in the way you may have in mind. It's a hobbyist, traditional Judo spot. You're welcome to come try it out.

    If you want to have a discussion about your specific interests and goals we can expand on that here or you can PM me. I've got plenty of other thoughts floating around in here.
    Awesome post.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,728
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Thanks. I changed direction a couple of times while writing. I think there's a lot of things that could be discussed on these topics.

    The real question is, when are you going to find a gym and get on the mat?
    I am just happy to be feeling good enough to be lifting again. Getting on the mat is a pipe dream at this point.
     

    Jackson

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 31, 2008
    3,343
    63
    West side of Indy
    I just saw this post by Shivworks and this (hand control) is an example of the things you have to consider when taking sport training into tjis context.

     

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