Service M4 vs Civilian AR15 Quality

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  • Rating - 100%
    28   0   0
    Oct 3, 2008
    4,184
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    On a hill in Perry C
    Mil-spec doesn't mean good, it is simply a bare minimum of what is allowed.

    From my time in, as far as the higher readiness units getting the better stuff, all I can say is :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: . Most of my time in a TOE unit was spent either in a border unit in Germany or as part of XVIII Airborne Corps. Every single M1911 I saw and handled was ragged out, rattled, worn out rifling (and we hardly ever shot them. Excessive cleaning FTW!) rust bucket. Our M16s weren't any better, probably worse since they took a LOT of abuse. As far as small arms, the best condition ones I saw were the old M3 grease guns. Mainly because we never shot them and most of the time they lived in the arms room.
    A lot of reason our arms were in bad shape was because it damn near took an act of congress to get them repaired, because if they were at higher echelon for repairs it dinged our readiness rating. So as long as they (maybe, barely) functioned, they stayed in the unit.
    Thinking about it now, I think the best condition small arms I used were actually during training. Lots of finish wear but the insides were actually in good shape. I guess since there was a brief pause between cycles the armorers had time to actually do some maintenance.
     

    Ggreen

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    49   0   0
    Sep 19, 2016
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    most people will be just fine with any of the commercial AR's, most owners will not put enough rounds throughout to cause any significant wear.

    This isn't true. It's not a wear issue in most cases of people having issues with cheaper end commercial ar15's. It's loose barrel nuts, untrue upper reciever to barrel surface that max out an optics elevation just to zero, poor metal quality bolts, out of spec chambers, leaking gas blocks, out of spec bores, unstaked castle nuts, overgassed systems compensating for poor build quality, out of spec buffer retainers that snap and clog the receiver with an uncaptive buffer, soft steel sears, soft steel safety selectors that gall and eventually seize, out of spec receivers that require tools to tap out take down pins.....


    These are not wear problems many of these manifest within the first 5 or 6 range trips. Sometimes the first.
     

    Mark106

    Marksman
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    3   0   0
    Feb 15, 2020
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    Terre Haute
    I've a Colt LE6920 M4 (it's roll-marked that way) that I've tuned up a bit to my own preferences (aftermarket trigger, buffer, charging handle, BAD lever, compensator).
    It has run well on both the Lake City 55 and 62 grain. Re accuracy, it prefers the 62gr by a bit, but it doesn't do at all badly with the 55.
    Other than the god-awful factory trigger it came with, I can't say I've had a complaint about that carbine.
    Buddy of mine who was Marine infantry in Afghanistan shot it with me at range one day, and we gave it a nice workout. He said it was pretty much the same rifle he carried and that he thought the tune-up was nice. Said he could get by with it, for sure.
    Man outshot me, of course. I've yet to shoot with a Marine who can't run a rifle quite nicely.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,189
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    Ripley County
    I've a Colt LE6920 M4 (it's roll-marked that way) that I've tuned up a bit to my own preferences (aftermarket trigger, buffer, charging handle, BAD lever, compensator).
    It has run well on both the Lake City 55 and 62 grain. Re accuracy, it prefers the 62gr by a bit, but it doesn't do at all badly with the 55.
    Other than the god-awful factory trigger it came with, I can't say I've had a complaint about that carbine.
    Buddy of mine who was Marine infantry in Afghanistan shot it with me at range one day, and we gave it a nice workout. He said it was pretty much the same rifle he carried and that he thought the tune-up was nice. Said he could get by with it, for sure.
    Man outshot me, of course. I've yet to shoot with a Marine who can't run a rifle quite nicely.
    Like my boy when he returned from his deployment last year. I always out shot him. He came home and out shot me. I guess I'm getting older and losing my touch or it was all that training he got with some of our special forces guys. I know one thing they got him ready and did a great job improving his marksmanship.
     

    Ark

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    25   0   0
    Feb 18, 2017
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    This isn't true. It's not a wear issue in most cases of people having issues with cheaper end commercial ar15's. It's loose barrel nuts, untrue upper reciever to barrel surface that max out an optics elevation just to zero, poor metal quality bolts, out of spec chambers, leaking gas blocks, out of spec bores, unstaked castle nuts, overgassed systems compensating for poor build quality, out of spec buffer retainers that snap and clog the receiver with an uncaptive buffer, soft steel sears, soft steel safety selectors that gall and eventually seize, out of spec receivers that require tools to tap out take down pins.....


    These are not wear problems many of these manifest within the first 5 or 6 range trips. Sometimes the first.
    Agree. There's a lot of low and even mid tier guns that leave the factory in a state that is not functional. As in, will not complete their first full magazine of standard ammunition without a stoppage.

    Seen guns with improper weight buffers impeding operation, loose barrel nuts, crooked gas blocks completely occluding the gas port (super common), zeroes maxed out because the reciever face isn't true. I saw a dude on reddit with a smoothbore AR15. Smoothbore! The factory just...didn't rifle all the barrels that day.

    Of course, when you're making comparisons, you generally compare the best example of Gun A and Gun B and exclude manufacturing errors that aren't generalizable, but yes the probability of a gun not working out of the box is much higher on the cheap end as well as the probability of parts failures down the line.
     

    drillsgt

    Grandmaster
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    108   0   0
    Nov 29, 2009
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    Sioux Falls, SD
    oh boy, I could write volumes about the ****** weapons I got issued but I’ll keep it short and hit the high notes.

    Served in a non combat MOS reserve unit, deployed once to a combat zone although my job is not combat. That said I got issued a couple different rifles during work up (for some reason they never assigned S/N to a particular soldier) And every single one was a worn out old m16a2. Barrels were pretty well shot out with some evidence of key holing. Many had excessive wear on the finish and some had mechanical failures more frequently than I would now call acceptable. Now this may have been from poor quality, ****** old mags or just plain wear. One of the rifles I had the three round burst actually just fired a random number of bullets that was different every time. Sometimes it might shoot one, next time it would shoot 5-6.

    They promised us new fancy m4’s that never arrived. We deployed with these weapons, again not in great shape. Due to our actual job 95% of the weapons got turned in at the armory once we got to country. Some of the command staff (warrant, top, CO and S shop sergeants) got issued M9’s from said armory. Those pistols looked like they had been in country since the 1st gulf war. Finish was nonexistent, as to how they shot I have no idea because I don’t think they ever went to a range with them but I doubt they functioned any better than they look.

    So are some of the weapons front line units get issued of better quality than say an Aero like I run now? Maybe when they are new but certainly not after a few years of use and abuse. Parts wear out and a soldier in OSUT now fires 3775 live rounds in just 22 weeks. This doesn’t count the probably well over 1k blanks they shoot too. I’m not in the infantry but I did hand them out their ammo and let me tell you that one training ammo draw would blow you away with how many rounds they go through. They would pickup several 10’s of thousands of rounds seemed like every other week or so.

    point is maybe better quality to start with but long term most rifles in the army are pushed well beyond where most of us would just buy a new gun.
    I see a lot of high round count M4's used by the basic training companies. If they have problems it's usually traced back to a couple things, bad magazines or extractor/extractor spring issues. 'Unit armorers' are a thing of the past at least in basic training or we could fix a lot of these issues quickly. Those assigned as the armorer now are E4's or E5's who's main job is to keep track of serial numbers and sign out sensitive items. They don't keep any parts on hand anymore. If you have a problem on the range you have to wait for the 'weapons truck' to show up manned by a civilian contractor. At the end of the cycle the weapons do get inspected and gauged and repaired but again these are civilian contractors that do it now. For that matter even your 'supply clerks' are now augmented with or answer to civilian contractors.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
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    Ripley County
    I see a lot of high round count M4's used by the basic training companies. If they have problems it's usually traced back to a couple things, bad magazines or extractor/extractor spring issues. 'Unit armorers' are a thing of the past at least in basic training or we could fix a lot of these issues quickly. Those assigned as the armorer now are E4's or E5's who's main job is to keep track of serial numbers and sign out sensitive items. They don't keep any parts on hand anymore. If you have a problem on the range you have to wait for the 'weapons truck' to show up manned by a civilian contractor. At the end of the cycle the weapons do get inspected and gauged and repaired but again these are civilian contractors that do it now. For that matter even your 'supply clerks' are now augmented with or answer to civilian contractors.
    Amazing how times have changed.
     

    STEEL CORE

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    92   0   0
    Oct 29, 2008
    4,378
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    Fishers
    It all depends my M-16 back in the 70's, when I did the FT. Knox Boogie, may have been a bit worn out. I never ever received a newly issued weapon of any kind at anytime.
    My store bought COLTS and Parts CAR-15 were pretty much new when I bought them, but just as good in my opinion with the ones I were issued served with.
    I would and did, stake my life upon them.
     

    ScouT6a

    Master
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    13   1   0
    Mar 11, 2013
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    Having spent over 22 years in the Army Infantry, I was issued many rifles, pistols and machineguns.

    The biggest majority of them were in good condition, but that was with front line units (82nd, 101st, 25th ID)

    Many people that I see today want an AR15 that will shoot like a target rifle, run like a SEAL team rifle and look like a collectors rifle.

    A military issue M16/M4 is a great piece of kit that will engage human size targets out to 400-500 meters, take you any place in the world and bring you back alive. As an Infantryman, you are rarely more than arms length away from your rifle. You eat, sleep, work and train with it.

    Many civilians that I see don't need a $3000 AR, they need a $600 AR and $2400 worth of training.

    There are many reasons why Rock River, Wilson, Daniel Defense, LaRue, Bravo Company and Ruger ARs are not going down range.
     

    Ggreen

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    49   0   0
    Sep 19, 2016
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    Many civilians that I see don't need a $3000 AR, they need a $600 AR and $2400 worth of training.

    There are many reasons why Rock River, Wilson, Daniel Defense, LaRue, Bravo Company and Ruger ARs are not going down range.

    The problem is that a 600 dollar rifle won't make it through 2400 worth of training. No ifs ands or buts.

    Daniel defense is heavily involved in special ops rifles and carbines, they have tons of leo contacts federal and local. Larue does have mil contracts but for accessories. Larue has multiple agencies using them. Bcm has rifles and uppers in use by spec ops.
     

    ScouT6a

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    13   1   0
    Mar 11, 2013
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    The problem is that a 600 dollar rifle won't make it through 2400 worth of training. No ifs ands or buts.

    Daniel defense is heavily involved in special ops rifles and carbines, they have tons of leo contacts federal and local. Larue does have mil contracts but for accessories. Larue has multiple agencies using them. Bcm has rifles and uppers in use by spec ops.
    There is absolutely no reason why a $600 AR can't serve someone well, for it's intended purpose.
    Most civilians are not going to shoot/carry a rifle daily.

    I carry a $650, stock, DPMS for the Sheriff’s office. It has never failed me and I can out shoot the other guys high dollar rifles, in training/qualifications.

    Ok, let me say, there are many reasons those guy's rifles are not going down range, en mass.
     

    Ggreen

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    49   0   0
    Sep 19, 2016
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    There is absolutely no reason why a $600 AR can't serve someone well, for it's intended purpose.
    Most civilians are not going to shoot/carry a rifle daily.

    I carry a $650, stock, DPMS for the Sheriff’s office. It has never failed me and I can out shoot the other guys high dollar rifles, in training/qualifications.

    Ok, let me say, there are many reasons those guy's rifles are not going down range, en mass.

    In 2018 colt 6920s were 850, today they are 1450 ish. The 6920 is the baseline carbine and the latter ones had a rash of qc issues. Hopefully cz fixes this.

    Dpms hasn't built consistent quality since the buyout. Older dpms was alright. The dpms issues are extremely well documented with evidence.

    650 will not buy an in spec carbine today at all. 900 will start to get a person into a carbine that will consistently perform. The era of the 650 dollar ar15 is gone for at least 3 more years.
     

    ScouT6a

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    13   1   0
    Mar 11, 2013
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    I can see that you have an opinion and that is fine. I can only speak from my experiences. Regards.
    In 2018 colt 6920s were 850, today they are 1450 ish. The 6920 is the baseline carbine and the latter ones had a rash of qc issues. Hopefully cz fixes this.

    Dpms hasn't built consistent quality since the buyout. Older dpms was alright. The dpms issues are extremely well documented with evidence.

    650 will not buy an in spec carbine today at all. 900 will start to get a person into a carbine that will consistently perform. The era of the 650 dollar ar15 is gone for at least 3 more years.
     

    Usmccookie

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    6   0   0
    Jan 28, 2017
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    This isn't true. It's not a wear issue in most cases of people having issues with cheaper end commercial ar15's. It's loose barrel nuts, untrue upper reciever to barrel surface that max out an optics elevation just to zero, poor metal quality bolts, out of spec chambers, leaking gas blocks, out of spec bores, unstaked castle nuts, overgassed systems compensating for poor build quality, out of spec buffer retainers that snap and clog the receiver with an uncaptive buffer, soft steel sears, soft steel safety selectors that gall and eventually seize, out of spec receivers that require tools to tap out take down pins.....


    These are not wear problems many of these manifest within the first 5 or 6 range trips. Sometimes the first.
    At what point would you consider an "entry level" ar good to go? If it survived 1k rounds, 5k rounds? I'm asking because I have a psa I built as my first ar 7-8 years ago. Idk how many thousands of rounds and abuse it's taken. I trust it, but having been years in manufacturing, I know what you said is true. Just like you can get plenty of lemons the cheaper you go, good ones also slip out.
     

    Ggreen

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    49   0   0
    Sep 19, 2016
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    At what point would you consider an "entry level" ar good to go? If it survived 1k rounds, 5k rounds? I'm asking because I have a psa I built as my first ar 7-8 years ago. Idk how many thousands of rounds and abuse it's taken. I trust it, but having been years in manufacturing, I know what you said is true. Just like you can get plenty of lemons the cheaper you go, good ones also slip out.

    It depends. If i knew i had the buyer had the ability to troubleshoot and solve malfunctions and it wasn't a service rifle then fine go for it. Regardless of known and documented qc lapses psa is a good deal over the 650 mark now, baseline rifles are nearly 800 dollars. A similar carbine from solgw goes on sale for 900 regularly. Easy decision to just pass on the psa now that budget brands are charging just a few dollars under premium brands.

    The draw to psa and other cheap brands was value. That gap has closed as they all raised prices and the premium brands stayed solid.
    I can see that you have an opinion and that is fine. I can only speak from my experiences. Regards.
    I'm just saying in the current and foreseeable future market 650 will barely buy you an omni that isn't an opinion its a fact. And there was a pretty huge gap between dpms of the 90s and early 2000s and the dpms that was in every rk for 600 over the past few years. Even anodizing was skimped on.
     

    DadSmith

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    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
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    In 2018 colt 6920s were 850, today they are 1450 ish. The 6920 is the baseline carbine and the latter ones had a rash of qc issues. Hopefully cz fixes this.

    Dpms hasn't built consistent quality since the buyout. Older dpms was alright. The dpms issues are extremely well documented with evidence.

    650 will not buy an in spec carbine today at all. 900 will start to get a person into a carbine that will consistently perform. The era of the 650 dollar ar15 is gone for at least 3 more years.
    I thought colt brought out the 6940 line to fix the 6920 mess.

    You can build a Frankin15 with quality parts from several different manufacturers and combine them for a better rifle than what the military is issued. Except maybe the new FN made M4's. FN makes high quality firearms for military service.

    The M240 is a renamed FN MAG.

    The M241 is the FN minimi

    Both are excellent.
     
    Last edited:

    Expat

    Pdub
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    23   0   0
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    I have a couple ARs that I have never shot but I have had no trouble with them at all and they seem to do just as well as the others. So I think we can all agree they are just as good.
     
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