Secession: an academic discussion

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  • NKBJ

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    China could finance it. And as our clear rival, wouldn’t it make sense for them to break up the only nation powerful enough to challenge them?
    Well, yeah they could... and can the argument be made that they have been?
    That's something to scratch my head over while trimming and curing some thick pork chops* for smoking in the freezing weather tomorrow.

    *The Kroger card price was cut in half with a reduced sticker so I couldn't resist grabbing the package. Figger they need to be done pronto so it's time for curing salts, brown sugar, coarse pepper, garlic powder, onion powder, then overnight in the icebox.
    :)
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    *The Kroger card price was cut in half with a reduced sticker so I couldn't resist grabbing the package. Figger they need to be done pronto so it's time for curing salts, brown sugar, coarse pepper, garlic powder, onion powder, then overnight in the icebox.
    Well that just sounds awful. :drool:
     

    NKBJ

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    Oh, and apple smoke.
    It's gonna get dang near up to freezing tomorrow so I'll cook outside while we're working on the kitchen cabinets.
    Eh, after five years I must be getting acclimated to the corn tundra. Wasn't too sure about the cat but I saw her sit down in the snow before sun up this morning.
    :)
     

    KellyinAvon

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    Your thought of multiple federations is touched on in one of the essays here:

    Amazon product ASIN 1589809572
    The author contends that once a republic expands beyond its natural size, it is dysfunctional and no longer operates as a republic. Reorganizing in smaller groups restores the republic structure.

    (Note: The cover artwork is just a pic... not necessarily a suggestion of how reorganizations would form)
    American Nations by Colin Woodard was a good read.

    Amazon product ASIN 0143122029
     

    BigRed

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    Secession Becomes Thinkable

    Linked is a review of the recently released work "American Secession: The Looming Threat of National Breakup."




    An excerpt from the review:

    "Texas v. White (1869) is frequently presented as the U.S. Supreme Court’s landmark ruling on secession, in which Chief Justice Salmon Chase ruled that a state could not secede on its own authority. However, any honest application of the original intent of the framers of the Constitution would show that a state has the right to negotiate separation. Acknowledging this would make Lincoln’s invasion illegitimate, which Chase, as an agent of the victorious side, was not willing to do. Buckley thinks that should California, for example, vote to secede and withdraw its representatives, today’s Court would not have the stomach to follow Texas v. White and empower a new Lincoln to declare war against The Golden State.

    Rather, the Court would have to do what it has never done before, namely ground its opinion about secession not on the success of a war but on all four corners of the Constitution. In doing so, it would be forced to recognize the historic reality of state sovereignty. “Originalists on the Court who are faithful to the intentions of the Framers would be willing to recognize secession rights,” Buckley writes."



    Here is a link that enables you to read the preface and table of contents:

    Amazon product ASIN B07N94RL11
     

    Libertarian01

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    First, let us presume that a mechanism is created to even allow for peaceful secession.

    After that, all hell would break loose, logistically speaking.

    For this stage we can presume that Indiana secedes from the USA. We need our own currency. We need to be recognized as a sovereign nation by foreign powers. We would need to mirror to a much greater degree the entire bureaucracy of the federal government. The international logistics alone would be enormous.

    Oh, and how would Indiana trade with the world? We actually do have some limited access to the great lakes, which has some access for shipping. Are our ships now allowed to pass through the Saint Lawrence River? Who has legal liability for these ships now flagged under the sovereign nation of Indiana's flag? If our inspections are not "up to snuff" could the hoosier taxpayers be on the hook for an oil spill affecting Canada and the remaining USA?

    What about currently incarcerated federal prisoners being housed in Indiana? Do they stay, and if so for how long?

    How are people from Ohio supposed to travel to Illinois? Will there be new border checkpoints?

    We also have to consider electricity. How independent are we? I know we get some power from a nuclear reactor in Michigan, but how much? How do we deal with this issue?

    Now let us presume it is California which secedes. What happens to all of the USA military bases? How does trade flow through California to the rest of the nation? California has the most shipping on the west coast. That will surely affect trade within the rest of the USA.

    People speak of this issue as if all we have to do is "break away then we'll set things aright." Really? How wonderfully naive. It has taken the United States of America 244 years to develop and build our infrastructure, and we're still working on it. If any state ever decided to secede, and it was "allowed," the devastation to that states economy and governmental organization would be catastrophic. The catastrophe would exist with a peaceful exit. A violent exit, or even not peaceful...? Not good for anyone.

    In my opinion.

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    BigRed

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    The Abraham Lincoln Problem





    A short (8min) video on the deification of Lincoln and propaganda of the centralized state.
     

    phylodog

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    First, let us presume that a mechanism is created to even allow for peaceful secession.

    After that, all hell would break loose, logistically speaking.

    For this stage we can presume that Indiana secedes from the USA. We need our own currency. We need to be recognized as a sovereign nation by foreign powers. We would need to mirror to a much greater degree the entire bureaucracy of the federal government. The international logistics alone would be enormous.

    Oh, and how would Indiana trade with the world? We actually do have some limited access to the great lakes, which has some access for shipping. Are our ships now allowed to pass through the Saint Lawrence River? Who has legal liability for these ships now flagged under the sovereign nation of Indiana's flag? If our inspections are not "up to snuff" could the hoosier taxpayers be on the hook for an oil spill affecting Canada and the remaining USA?

    What about currently incarcerated federal prisoners being housed in Indiana? Do they stay, and if so for how long?

    How are people from Ohio supposed to travel to Illinois? Will there be new border checkpoints?

    We also have to consider electricity. How independent are we? I know we get some power from a nuclear reactor in Michigan, but how much? How do we deal with this issue?

    Now let us presume it is California which secedes. What happens to all of the USA military bases? How does trade flow through California to the rest of the nation? California has the most shipping on the west coast. That will surely affect trade within the rest of the USA.

    People speak of this issue as if all we have to do is "break away then we'll set things aright." Really? How wonderfully naive. It has taken the United States of America 244 years to develop and build our infrastructure, and we're still working on it. If any state ever decided to secede, and it was "allowed," the devastation to that states economy and governmental organization would be catastrophic. The catastrophe would exist with a peaceful exit. A violent exit, or even not peaceful...? Not good for anyone.

    In my opinion.

    Regards,

    Doug
    You are correct, it would suck.

    I'd still choose it over death in a reeducation camp.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    First, let us presume that a mechanism is created to even allow for peaceful secession.

    After that, all hell would break loose, logistically speaking.

    For this stage we can presume that Indiana secedes from the USA. We need our own currency. We need to be recognized as a sovereign nation by foreign powers. We would need to mirror to a much greater degree the entire bureaucracy of the federal government. The international logistics alone would be enormous.

    Oh, and how would Indiana trade with the world? We actually do have some limited access to the great lakes, which has some access for shipping. Are our ships now allowed to pass through the Saint Lawrence River? Who has legal liability for these ships now flagged under the sovereign nation of Indiana's flag? If our inspections are not "up to snuff" could the hoosier taxpayers be on the hook for an oil spill affecting Canada and the remaining USA?

    What about currently incarcerated federal prisoners being housed in Indiana? Do they stay, and if so for how long?

    How are people from Ohio supposed to travel to Illinois? Will there be new border checkpoints?

    We also have to consider electricity. How independent are we? I know we get some power from a nuclear reactor in Michigan, but how much? How do we deal with this issue?

    Now let us presume it is California which secedes. What happens to all of the USA military bases? How does trade flow through California to the rest of the nation? California has the most shipping on the west coast. That will surely affect trade within the rest of the USA.

    People speak of this issue as if all we have to do is "break away then we'll set things aright." Really? How wonderfully naive. It has taken the United States of America 244 years to develop and build our infrastructure, and we're still working on it. If any state ever decided to secede, and it was "allowed," the devastation to that states economy and governmental organization would be catastrophic. The catastrophe would exist with a peaceful exit. A violent exit, or even not peaceful...? Not good for anyone.

    In my opinion.

    Regards,

    Doug
    How do you figure? I fail to see how how a state's economy would be LESS viable without the huge overhead expense of sending money to Washington.
     

    GIJEW

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    The idea of "conservatives and democratic-socialists, go to your corners" as a peaceful way to defuse what's going on, sounds good but I don't see how it would be peaceful.
    It's already been pointed out that the country is actually a checkerboard of "red&blue" and the margins inside most every state is in single digit percentages. If that isn't addressed, then secession is an exercise in futility. The way that often works in conflicts between different groups of people who can't get along, is "population transfer" where people run for safety to areas where "their people" are in the majority. How would that work here? TX declares "democratic-socialism is illegal here, 'austin' all ya all git!"?
    As an aside, that sounds like what some democrat officials and the media have in mind for about 1/2 the country: R. Reich--"truth&reconcilliation commissions to hold people accountable"; AOC--"auditing Trump syncophants, to hold them responsible"; D. Atkins(DNC)--"deprogramming people"; extending the patriot-act to "domestic terrorists" which according to brennan include "...even libertarians.". However, there won't be a different state to go to.
    Anyway, if the states convened a Constitutional Convention for the purpose of dissolving it, that would dissolve the authority of the federal gov't and it's bureaucracy but would the professional ruling class go quietly? Judging from the "soft coup" attempt against Trump, I don't think so. They'd control:
    *the military and federal LE agencies...in theory
    *the central bank
    *"big tech", media, and most banks, are aligned with them
    *(allow me to adjust my tinfoil hat) they might not be alone. The World Economic Forum has been talking about a "great reset" of the world's economic system and the biden admin has been parroting their jargon about "building back better". If they needed reinforcements, they might get foreign help to "protect global stability".
    With the ideological/"tribal" divide, looming financial crash, and disregard by politicians for the rule of law, I doubt it will be possible to peacefully keep the country "united" long term either.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    I'm not a historian, but my perspective is why not let them seceed? We would have been spared a horrible war (I lost an ancestor in a Confederate prison camp). Slavery would have died on its own and it would be the CSA"s problem, not ours.

    BTW, as I understand it, the beginning of the war was when the Confederates shelled Ft. Sumter. They refused to get involved in any peaceful settlement, yet they call it the "War of Northern Aggression". I'm confused. I also love vacationing in the South and fully realize they are happy to take my money and happy to see my tail lights when I leave. I love them anyway.
    As one whose ancestors were slaves, I like to ask you a serious question. You stated that “slavery would’ve died on its own,” and maybe it would’ve. My question to you, “is how long should someone wait for liberty?” If you, in modern times demand freedom “now,” and are willing to fight to for your and your fellow man’s freedom, why are you suggesting that then it should not be the same way?
     

    IndyDave1776

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    As one whose ancestors were slaves, I like to ask you a serious question. You stated that “slavery would’ve died on its own,” and maybe it would’ve. My question to you, “is how long should someone wait for liberty?” If you, in modern times demand freedom “now,” and are willing to fight to for your and your fellow man’s freedom, why are you suggesting that then it should not be the same way?
    Had the North not been such peckerheads that the South held on to slavery out of spite, Virginia, for one, actually had the bill to abolish slavery drafted and ready for a vote until the North pushed the tariff through that was the primary point of contention leading to the war. Bear in mind this was some 10 years BEFORE the war.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    The idea of "conservatives and democratic-socialists, go to your corners" as a peaceful way to defuse what's going on, sounds good but I don't see how it would be peaceful.
    It's already been pointed out that the country is actually a checkerboard of "red&blue" and the margins inside most every state is in single digit percentages. If that isn't addressed, then secession is an exercise in futility. The way that often works in conflicts between different groups of people who can't get along, is "population transfer" where people run for safety to areas where "their people" are in the majority. How would that work here? TX declares "democratic-socialism is illegal here, 'austin' all ya all git!"?
    As an aside, that sounds like what some democrat officials and the media have in mind for about 1/2 the country: R. Reich--"truth&reconcilliation commissions to hold people accountable"; AOC--"auditing Trump syncophants, to hold them responsible"; D. Atkins(DNC)--"deprogramming people"; extending the patriot-act to "domestic terrorists" which according to brennan include "...even libertarians.". However, there won't be a different state to go to.
    Anyway, if the states convened a Constitutional Convention for the purpose of dissolving it, that would dissolve the authority of the federal gov't and it's bureaucracy but would the professional ruling class go quietly? Judging from the "soft coup" attempt against Trump, I don't think so. They'd control:
    *the military and federal LE agencies...in theory
    *the central bank
    *"big tech", media, and most banks, are aligned with them
    *(allow me to adjust my tinfoil hat) they might not be alone. The World Economic Forum has been talking about a "great reset" of the world's economic system and the biden admin has been parroting their jargon about "building back better". If they needed reinforcements, they might get foreign help to "protect global stability".
    With the ideological/"tribal" divide, looming financial crash, and disregard by politicians for the rule of law, I doubt it will be possible to peacefully keep the country "united" long term either.
    This is why we are likely to see, well, nondiplomatic solutions carry the day.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    First, let us presume that a mechanism is created to even allow for peaceful secession.

    After that, all hell would break loose, logistically speaking.

    For this stage we can presume that Indiana secedes from the USA. We need our own currency. We need to be recognized as a sovereign nation by foreign powers. We would need to mirror to a much greater degree the entire bureaucracy of the federal government. The international logistics alone would be enormous.

    Oh, and how would Indiana trade with the world? We actually do have some limited access to the great lakes, which has some access for shipping. Are our ships now allowed to pass through the Saint Lawrence River? Who has legal liability for these ships now flagged under the sovereign nation of Indiana's flag? If our inspections are not "up to snuff" could the hoosier taxpayers be on the hook for an oil spill affecting Canada and the remaining USA?

    What about currently incarcerated federal prisoners being housed in Indiana? Do they stay, and if so for how long?

    How are people from Ohio supposed to travel to Illinois? Will there be new border checkpoints?

    We also have to consider electricity. How independent are we? I know we get some power from a nuclear reactor in Michigan, but how much? How do we deal with this issue?

    Now let us presume it is California which secedes. What happens to all of the USA military bases? How does trade flow through California to the rest of the nation? California has the most shipping on the west coast. That will surely affect trade within the rest of the USA.

    People speak of this issue as if all we have to do is "break away then we'll set things aright." Really? How wonderfully naive. It has taken the United States of America 244 years to develop and build our infrastructure, and we're still working on it. If any state ever decided to secede, and it was "allowed," the devastation to that states economy and governmental organization would be catastrophic. The catastrophe would exist with a peaceful exit. A violent exit, or even not peaceful...? Not good for anyone.

    In my opinion.

    Regards,

    Doug
    1. We do not necessarily need a currency. Several small countries use the $US as their official currency. Swiss francs come to mind as an obvious choice.

    2. Recognition is a matter of accepting reality, not a matter of needing anyone else's imprimatur to exist.

    3. Almost no sea trade is carried under the US flag. Why would it be carried under the Indiana flag?

    4. Given the virtual certainty of shipborne trade happening under a foreign flag, most likely one of the usual flags of convenience, liability for mishaps is not our problem.

    5. Federal prisoners can be returned to whomever wants to continue caging them or else sent home if no other state or a remnant US .gov wants to continue incarcerating them.

    6. If California secedes, it will almost certainly split into 2 states. While LA has the greatest volume capacity Northern California would probably be agreeable and could construct larger harbor facilities if needed. I would also hope that we would take this opportunity to stop buying **** from China and build our own economy.

    7. We could either offer free passage to citizens of other states presuming reciprocal treatment, or perhaps establish the 80/90 toll road as a free transit zone like the Panama Canal only on land.

    8. We have power houses. We have coal. We will NOT at this point have some window licker in Washington prohibiting us from using them. Alternately, it can be traded across borders like any other product.

    9. Military assets can be apportioned by what any given state paid into them although stationary facilities pretty much are where they are.

    10. How does removing the federal.gov from taking our highway money, giving 20% of it to West Virginia, and making us beg and jump through hoops to get 80% of it back work better than going alone?

    11. Overall, thus supposed economic devastation sounds more like a bogeyman to scare people into submission more than anything approaching reality.
     

    NKBJ

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    As one whose ancestors were slaves, I like to ask you a serious question. You stated that “slavery would’ve died on its own,” and maybe it would’ve. My question to you, “is how long should someone wait for liberty?” If you, in modern times demand freedom “now,” and are willing to fight to for your and your fellow man’s freedom, why are you suggesting that then it should not be the same way?
    Some could consider the comparison fitting if our people today recognized their de facto status as thralls.
     
    Last edited:

    spec4

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    As one whose ancestors were slaves, I like to ask you a serious question. You stated that “slavery would’ve died on its own,” and maybe it would’ve. My question to you, “is how long should someone wait for liberty?” If you, in modern times demand freedom “now,” and are willing to fight to for your and your fellow man’s freedom, why are you suggesting that then it should not be the same way?
    Not suggesting that. The north, for one thing may have considered severe sanctions against the slaveholders that would cost them more than it was worth to own slaves.

    Not sure about fighting for my fellow mans freedom. My great grand mother and her brother ended up orphans because of that war. I suppose my great great grandfather had a lot of peer pressure to join up.

    This is an interesting subject and as stated above, I'm not a scholar. My mind can't get around one human being owning another.
     

    NKBJ

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    Slavery is something I grok spec4. The difference now is that the big boss doesn't have to take care of his investment.

    My grandfather told me about the lines of men ready to take your place during the great depression, and here we going into what's being called the greatest depression.
    The defining question of the hand to mouth 2020's just might be "What color is your green house?"
     

    BigRed

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    Where does Liberty thrive?

    Does she thrive in centralization?

    Does she thrive in decentralization?

    Does she thrive in some other way?

    Does it even matter if she survives at all?
     

    Angrysauce

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    As previously mentioned American Nations by Woodard is a good read and enlightening in many ways.
    In my view (for all that it's worth) the United States have never been truly "united". We don't have a shared culture, ethnicity, or heritage to fall back on, so inevitably class, racial, religious, and ideological conflict arises. We've only really ever "worked" as a nation when there was some common enemy. The world stage hasn't presented a real boogieman for about 80 years, so naturally we've focused our energy at our neighbors.
    The United States was never supposed to be of any consequence, the Federal government was never supposed to be a part of your daily life. The power, authority, and influence was to lay at the state and local level. It's pretty easy to see looking back that as the Federal government grew more conflict arose.
    If we want to improve the United States it's necessary we decentralize, succession is not enough.
     
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