Secession: an academic discussion

[NKBJ]

IndyDave, European time, money and resources.

 

[flatlander]

My wife commented that we probably wouldn't be living together if this ever happens

Bob

 

[IndyDave1776]

IndyDave, European time, money and resources.

Yes. The original civil war could not have happened without those. In 1861 the south had most of its wealth in the form of cotton bales, few factories of any kind, very little skilled labor, and the Tredegar Works of Richmond was the only facility in the south capable of producing cannon.

Today, those of us in flyover country are not nearly so poor of money and manufacturing. Consequently I see no need for European sugar daddies for it to be viable.

 

[BigRed]

Original civil war?

 

[IndyDave1776]

Original civil war?

War between the States if you prefer. Anyway, I am putting even odds on a repetition.

 

[BigRed]

War between the States if you prefer. Anyway, I am putting even odds on a repetition.

Ah, the war of northern aggression.

 

[NKBJ]

Yes. The original civil war could not have happened without those. In 1861 the south had most of its wealth in the form of cotton bales, few factories of any kind, very little skilled labor, and the Tredegar Works of Richmond was the only facility in the south capable of producing cannon.

Today, those of us in flyover country are not nearly so poor of money and manufacturing. Consequently I see no need for European sugar daddies for it to be viable.

They were predators intending to divide and conquer, not sugar daddies.
Now the intent is to facilitate the ascendancy of our replacement.

 

[Johnny C]

New World Order?

I'm afraid you'll fit in fine here.

PS - We do have a Civil Christian Discussion thread for us redeemed.

Where is this thread?

 

[ditcherman]

Where is this thread?

Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

And go

www.indianagunowners.com

I believe this is what he’s referring to, break room on the second page after a busy day today apparently.

 

[IndyDave1776]

They were predators intending to divide and conquer, not sugar daddies.
Now the intent is to facilitate the ascendancy of our replacement.

Depends on perspective. Britain in particular was in it for the cotton in direct competition with the North. I am not saying the sugar daddy relationship would not have changed after such a time as the South may have won.

Right now, no one really needs to conquer us. They just need to knock us off balance so China can pass us to the front of the pack. While this is an outcome I would prefer not to see, it isn't worth giving up what freedom we have left and what we could reclaim just so Washington can stay on top of Beijing.

 

[BigRed]

The Right to Be Left Alone | Mark Skousen

 

[NKBJ]

Depends on perspective. Britain in particular was in it for the cotton in direct competition with the North. I am not saying the sugar daddy relationship would not have changed after such a time as the South may have won.

Right now, no one really needs to conquer us. They just need to knock us off balance so China can pass us to the front of the pack. While this is an outcome I would prefer not to see, it isn't worth giving up what freedom we have left and what we could reclaim just so Washington can stay on top of Beijing.

Dave, Britain was setting up the divide and conquer strategy decades before secession. And, they weren't the only great house involved.

Side note; due to a separate European attempt at getting their fingers back into the pie Lincoln was dragged into the fight while still a trial lawyer, from the fall out of trying to use Roman churches as HQ's to wrestle away political control up the Mississippi. Was it only chance that a man so armed with knowledge would become our president? Or did the knowledge create the president? Obviously, it's something I've wondered about. I've come to think he knew that if the secession wasn't squashed then the CSA was going to become a vassal state of combined expansionist European interests. Have you noticed how some people like to harp on President Lincoln having taken unconstitutional actions but they never get around to knowing why? And somehow the 1860-1865 war is viewed as a uniquely American isolated blip in our history when in actuality it was western European great houses vying for control of another continent not unlike their exploitations of Africa and Asia. I want to get my hands on correspondence from that time between the US and Russia, from when Alexander II sent his navy to thwart his enemies taking America. Probably a good project for this winter.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Dave, Britain was setting up the divide and conquer strategy decades before secession. And, they weren't the only great house involved.

Side note; due to a separate European attempt at getting their fingers back into the pie Lincoln was dragged into the fight while still a trial lawyer, from the fall out of trying to use Roman churches as HQ's to wrestle away political control up the Mississippi. Was it only chance that a man so armed with knowledge would become our president? Or did the knowledge create the president? Obviously, it's something I've wondered about. I've come to think he knew that if the secession wasn't squashed then the CSA was going to become a vassal state of combined expansionist European interests. Have you noticed how some people like to harp on President Lincoln having taken unconstitutional actions but they never get around to knowing why? And somehow the 1860-1865 war is viewed as a uniquely American isolated blip in our history when in actuality it was western European great houses vying for control of another continent not unlike their exploitations of Africa and Asia. I want to get my hands on correspondence from that time between the US and Russia, from when Alexander II sent his navy to thwart his enemies taking America. Probably a good project for this winter.

It's a shame I just don't have time for much recreational reading any more. I am also seeing that college wasn't worth what I paid for it. Anyway, I am left with one question about Lincoln: Why didn't he just do something about the tariffs? For example, Virginia was about to abolish slavery well before the war but backed out as a hoisted middle finger at the North over the protective tariffs for northern industry that significantly dropped the buying power of anyone not gaining through manufacturing. Getting that corporate welfare under control would have been enough to solve the problem without a military confrontation.

 

[BigRed]

It's a shame I just don't have time for much recreational reading any more. I am also seeing that college wasn't worth what I paid for it. Anyway, I am left with one question about Lincoln: Why didn't he just do something about the tariffs? For example, Virginia was about to abolish slavery well before the war but backed out as a hoisted middle finger at the North over the protective tariffs for northern industry that significantly dropped the buying power of anyone not gaining through manufacturing. Getting that corporate welfare under control would have been enough to solve the problem without a military confrontation.

Lincoln was a mercantilist. His "network" of friends were tied heavily into northern industry as was Lincoln himself. In particular, Lincoln was positioned to make substantial returns from investments tied to the railroads and related lands. He and his whole cabal were beneficiaries of the tariffs. They had no interest in seeing them diminished.

This might be a topic for another thread so as not to derail this one from the larger issue of secession and nullification.

 

[NKBJ]

Dunno, good question. Reckon Lincoln was in the same fix as any president and had to dance with who brung him? And did he royally earn their ire by wanting to welcome the secessionist states back into the fold without looting them? Again, dunno but forever scratching my beard.
The man was far from pure or free from fault. From this distance all I can say for sure is
1. Lincoln did a pretty darn good job for what he had to work with and
2. I aint buyin' that lone gun man stuff even though Booth's writings made me think he craved glorification more than justice and
3. after removing the molding from the kitchen cabinets I don't know whether to start degreasing or sanding first.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Regardless of whether or not Booth acted alone, he fired the most injurious shot the South suffered in the entire war. Johnson simply wasn't able to reign in the vindictive bastards in Congress.

 

[BigRed]

Walter Williams: Constitution Allows for Secession

Walter Williams: Constitution allows for secession

For decades, it has been obvious that there are irreconcilable differences between Americans who want to control the lives of others and those who wish to be left alone.

richmond.com

A good article debunking the myth that secession is not constitutional.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Walter Williams: Constitution Allows for Secession

Walter Williams: Constitution allows for secession

For decades, it has been obvious that there are irreconcilable differences between Americans who want to control the lives of others and those who wish to be left alone.

richmond.com

A good article debunking the myth that secession is not constitutional.

Thanks for posting BigRed. Walter Williams was a man of great intellect and he will be missed.

 

[NKBJ]

Regardless of whether or not Booth acted alone, he fired the most injurious shot the South suffered in the entire war. Johnson simply wasn't able to reign in the vindictive bastards in Congress.

You bet, it sure riled everybody up just when they had a chance to simmer down.

 

[Bill of Rights]

...
For years politicians have tickled our ears with what they know we want to hear, but then go do what they want. I don’t really see this as that much different, they have been priming the pump for us to think one thing and accepting different behavior. We have the capacity, for better or worse, to ‘get along’ without holding others accountable, this idea might not be so far fetched.
Definitely not advocating it, in fact I’d fight against it but we’re not talking about that here are we now.

"Fighting against it" does not always mean violence.

Also, for those discussing Lincoln, as I've pointed out elsewhere (and maybe in this thread too, I forget) Research the "Corwin Amendment", which would have been the 13th. Lincoln signed it, indicating agreement, even though there is no role for the President in the Amendment process. It's not that he cared about slavery, he just wanted to keep the country together, even if keeping slavery alive was the price of doing so.

Blessings,
Bill