Scope adjustment difficulty

[doddg]

Optics are a career-extender for many shooters.

So true! I gave up on rifles until optics got me back in the game.

What Athlon do you have? I have a 4x16 Talos mildot, and believe it or not it's a good scope at $180. It was the cheapest side-parallax adjuster on the market when I bought it. I once won a match with it shooting against a field that included $2,500 scopes, so I'd wager your Athlon is not going to be limiting you in any way.

Don't remember the numbers, but the Athlon either goes up to an x18 or maybe even a x24.

If you know your eyes are the biggest issue, I'm sorry to tell you that going and blowing a bunch of money on scopes is not the solution.

Not my style.
I've only bought used scopes for my rifles except for a new Vortex I ordered in a package deal with cantilever rings for a new rifle I ordered b/c hadn't bought my used scopes at that time.

What the troops were trying to tell you above, is use the eyepiece to adjust focus on the reticle. Use parallax to focus on the target. However, focusing on the target is not super-critical.

That is the choice I've made since I had to see the crosshairs, but seeing the rings in the 7/8" circles I have been using for 50 yd target practice clearly is what I compromised.

A rifle scope is not supposed to be a spotting scope. You are not supposed to be able to see your hits on paper through it (unless maybe you're a benchrest competitor). In fact, the best long range target shooters often dial back the parallax on their scopes to focus in the air partway to the target, so they can read heat mirage and wind patterns to pick the timing of their shot. They can execute excellent marksmanship without being able to see the target clearly through the scope. You just need to have a clear idea of where the reticle is in relation to it. Back in the days before the military adopted the .50 SASR, snipers had great hit rates out to 1,000 yards with 3x9 Redfield scopes.

Wow! That's some very technical info!
I'm certainly not a benchrest competitor, just a retired guy enjoying his hobby.

I would put the Athlon on the gun you intend to shoot, and dial it back to a power level where you can see the target and reticle "in relation to" each other,

When I figure out which rifles I'm keeping I intend to put the Athlon on the best one.

because that's what allows you to call your shots and be a better marksman. Ask yourself on every shot: "What direction was the reticle moving when the shot broke?" You should know. You should be able to say, "That shot broke with the reticle at 3 o'clock on the target, about halfway out and moving toward the center." That doesn't mean a higher-dollar scope with higher magnification. That means "paying attention." It is better to be shooting with a $39 4x Tasco rimfire scope, and know exactly how your reticle was moving when the shot broke, than have a $400 scope that allows you to see insects on the target paper, and not be calling shots. Because knowing that reticle movement at the shot break is what helps you understand where your shot went and why, and whether you need to adjust your scope, or just work harder on the shooting.

That's a skill I don't certainly have yet.

The scope is to be able to magnify the target just enough so you can see the movement of your reticle in relation to it. Not necessarily be able to read the newspaper through it. (Benchrest competition and silhouette matches where you're trying to see sand-splashes are the exception).

 

[TJ Kackowski]

There are better optics than nikon. Vortex or better yet, drop the optics and learn marksmanship. Learn to shoot thru the irons. Learn to shoot with a sling.....

While I personally agree with you that one should learn rifle marksmanship using irons and a sling ... I am an RR Instructor after all ... doddg is not a candidate for that type of training.

I'm certain he could be taught how to properly use irons and with some corrective lenses could properly focus on the front sight. The trouble is that his body just won't allow him to use a sling. He's doing the very best he can from a bench and he's having good safe fun doing it.

To be sure, doddg is a work in progress and he's very open about what he's doing and the frustrations he's experiencing. However, given where he's at from where he started, all is good.

The difficulty right now is that he's trying to get to the "next level" and I believe it will require some one-on-one coaching to make that happen. There are several others on this forum who have provided him with good solid coaching and I'm certain they will provide more.

Stay tuned to the doddg show ... there is not a doubt in my mind that we will see him creating ragged one hole groups on a consistent basis in due course.

 

[doddg]

While I personally agree with you that one should learn rifle marksmanship using irons and a sling ... I am an RR Instructor after all ... doddg is not a candidate for that type of training.

I'm certain he could be taught how to properly use irons and with some corrective lenses could properly focus on the front sight. The trouble is that his body just won't allow him to use a sling. He's doing the very best he can from a bench and he's having good safe fun doing it.

To be sure, doddg is a work in progress and he's very open about what he's doing and the frustrations he's experiencing. However, given where he's at from where he started, all is good.

The difficulty right now is that he's trying to get to the "next level" and I believe it will require some one-on-one coaching to make that happen. There are several others on this forum who have provided him with good solid coaching and I'm certain they will provide more.

Stay tuned to the doddg show ... there is not a doubt in my mind that we will see him creating ragged one hole groups on a consistent basis in due course.

Thanks for listening and thanks for the encouragement.

In the past some have levelled criticism for me not following advice when it's been offered.
That is a puzzle because much of what I do is because of learning from others.
Some privately email me with input because they don’t want to be under the gun, but as long as I'm learning I'll gladly take it.
I do limit myself on certain things b/c of the usual money constraints for a "hobby."

Partial list of what I've done upon recommendation or following what I read/saw here on INGO:
- gone to get training/classes about a dozen times with individuals or groups
- joined outdoor range at MCF&G (with hopes of steel shooting someday)
- rifle rest system I bought (3rd one, now)
- rifle brands upon recommendation or seen here
- range & competition ammo brands
- soft cases instead of hard cases for rifles
- holsters
- targets
- handguns (CC/range/"collectibles")
- cantilever rings
- high rails
- scopes

Example:
When I started out with rifles, recommended were Ruger, Savage or CZ.
Got a semi, then a bolt Ruger (with misc. in the mix), went to Savage & finally got up to CZ.
B/C of the "bad" influence from friends here on , now am being tempted with Tikka, & even have my eye on a "econo" Bergara.
Never ends, does it?

 

[wtburnette]

I understand. Not rimfire, but I just ordered a Bergara B14 Timber in .308 for giggles. Now to buy glass for it...

 

[zachcz]

Thanks for listening and thanks for the encouragement.

In the past some have levelled criticism for me not following advice when it's been offered.
That is a puzzle because much of what I do is because of learning from others.
Some privately email me with input because they don’t want to be under the gun, but as long as I'm learning I'll gladly take it.
I do limit myself on certain things b/c of the usual money constraints for a "hobby."

Partial list of what I've done upon recommendation or following what I read/saw here on INGO:
- gone to get training/classes about a dozen times with individuals or groups
- joined outdoor range at MCF&G (with hopes of steel shooting someday)
- rifle rest system I bought (3rd one, now)
- rifle brands upon recommendation or seen here
- range & competition ammo brands
- soft cases instead of hard cases for rifles
- holsters
- targets
- handguns (CC/range/"collectibles")
- cantilever rings
- high rails
- scopes

Example:
When I started out with rifles, recommended were Ruger, Savage or CZ.
Got a semi, then a bolt Ruger (with misc. in the mix), went to Savage & finally got up to CZ.
B/C of the "bad" influence from friends here on , now am being tempted with Tikka, & even have my eye on a "econo" Bergara.
Never ends, does it?

Just wasting money buying “better” until you perfect what you have especially at 50yds

 

[wtburnette]

I can agree that he should try see at what distance he can see clearly with the current scope. 25 yards? 50 yards? If you get that clarity at a distance and can shoot nice tight groups, but pushing it out farther means you can't see as well as you'd like to be consistent at that distance, then a higher magnification is likely needed. To some extent, Twangbanger is spot on, but for me, I prefer to see the target and my grouping as best I can, at least now that I'm starting out shooting for groups. At 25 and 50 yards, I can see my grouping clearly using my 6x24x50 scope at the highest magnification. At 100 yards, it's more of a guess. I feel much more comfortable when I can see the groups and am becoming better with more practice at the further distance where I can't see them as well. I think being able to see clearly at a closer distance while learning proper technique has been very beneficial to the process.

 

[johntheplinker]

I can agree that he should try see at what distance he can see clearly with the current scope. 25 yards? 50 yards? If you get that clarity at a distance and can shoot nice tight groups, but pushing it out farther means you can't see as well as you'd like to be consistent at that distance, then a higher magnification is likely needed. To some extent, Twangbanger is spot on, but for me, I prefer to see the target and my grouping as best I can, at least now that I'm starting out shooting for groups. At 25 and 50 yards, I can see my grouping clearly using my 6x24x50 scope at the highest magnification. At 100 yards, it's more of a guess. I feel much more comfortable when I can see the groups and am becoming better with more practice at the further distance where I can't see them as well. I think being able to see clearly at a closer distance while learning proper technique has been very beneficial to the process.

Good points. Being able to see your groups makes it a lot easier calling your shots when you can see if your crosshairs were off a bit when the trigger breaks. Also makes it a lot easier to determine if that flyer was ammo or user induced. Really, you don't need super high end glass at 50. A mid range Leupold, for example, at 6x will enable you to easily see individual 22 holes at 50 yards, and if you have good eyes will even work at 100. Magnification is good but clarity trumps it. Back when I was shooting Sporter class benchrest, we were restricted to 6x, and I could see the 6mm holes in the paper with no problem using a Leupold FX 6x. The 16x I used for light varmint it was almost possible to read the printing on the targets at 100. The 6.5-20x40 Leupold on my T1x makes 22 holes very visible at 100 even with my old tired eyes.
Being able to see your holes also has a downside. When you've got 4 in one hole and trying to get off the 5th shot and the yips hit...oh boy.
Nothing wrong with a cheaper scope with less clarity and/or magnification for some purposes but, you can't hit what you can't see with any consistency.

 

[doddg]

Just wasting money buying “better” until you perfect what you have especially at 50yds

I totally agree, my friend, & that's where I'm at.
I'm in a "$$ freeze" at the moment b/c I have lost control & doubled my original number of "trimmed" handguns & rifles.
Although, being weak, when Ggreen had his Savage A22 semi auto up for sale , I couldn't help myself after seeing his range pics.
And then, shortly thereafter, there was Rala's CZ 455 Varmint bolt action w/bull barrel with a Boyd's At-One stock that I knew had potential to beat my other bolt-actions if I can do my part.
Did I say, it never ends, yet?

 

[wtburnette]

I just wanna say, if you get tired of that CZ 455, you let me know before you put it in the classifieds...

 

[zachcz]

I just wanna say, if you get tired of that CZ 455, you let me know before you put it in the classifieds...

I already called dibs!

 

[wtburnette]

I already called dibs!

 

[doddg]

I just wanna say, if you get tired of that CZ 455, you let me know before you put it in the classifieds...

I have had guys tell me that in the past especially with handguns b/c they know I might keep something for only a few days, weeks or maybe months, depending on how it shoots compared to what I already have.
I write their name down in my yearly planner.
Any time I've ever contacted anyone when ready to sell, they have spent their money or moved on, or I've never sold that item.
I'll write you down under Zachcz!

 

[wtburnette]

I have had guys tell me that in the past especially with handguns b/c they know I might keep something for only a few days, weeks or maybe months, depending on how it shoots compared to what I already have.
I write their name down in my yearly planner.
Any time I've ever contacted anyone when ready to sell, they have spent their money or moved on, or I've never sold that item.
I'll write you down under Zachcz!

No problem, was partly kidding. That sounds like a really nice rifle and I kick myself for not keeping a better eye on the long guns section in the classifieds. That said, I already have a couple nice .22 bolt action guns, so will likely not need another any time soon. I am also on a spending freeze for a while after I recently bought a bolt action .308 right after building a new AR...

 

[JeepHammer]

Your scope most likely has an ocular (eyepiece) adjustment. It is used to focus the reticle while the parallax adjustment is used to focus on the target.

If you don't have the user's manual, look it up on Hawke's website.

To adjust the eyepiece, look through it at a well lit light colored wall. If the reticle isn't in focus, turn the ring at the very back end of the scope one way or the other until is is. Do not stare at it while focusing or your eye will adapt and give you a false focus. Keep looking away and then back at the reticle while focusing. Once this is set you do not adjust it again unless your eyesight changes.

The parallax/focus adjustment is the only one you use at the range and the reticle should stay in focus.

I'd add to start at the beginning...

Your optic has a fixed eye relief, optimum distance between ocular lens (last lense) and your eye.

To determine this distance, hold your optic vertically,
Drop a piece of paper with a star shape cut into it into and against the objective lense (first lense).

Then shine a flashlight into the objective lense, hold the flashlight/optic over a piece of white paper.
Move it closer/further from the paper until the star shaped image is sharpest, this will give you a good idea of optimum eye relief.

Unless it's a 'Scout' or pistol optic made for long eye relief, it's *Usually* about the length of your thumb from tip to knuckle on second joint.

Fundamentals also come into play here, like cheek weld on the stock so your eye is properly centered in the optic centerline.
When you cheek weld against the stock, do you have to move your head around to find 'Center'?
Move back & forward to get rid of the 'Gray' area around the reticle?
These are both signs your fundamental cheek weld isn't where it needs to be.

There is a reason those older rifles with high combs, offset combs existed,
The stock was modified so the cheek weld was correct for the shooter using the rifle.
The latest version of this is adjustable length of pull and adjustable cheek rest on higher end stocks.

I fit my customers (and myself) by installing an aluminum bar with 1/8" hole drilled longways through it.
Have the customer close their eyes, shoulder and cheek weld on the rifle, and open their eyes.
I watch them to see if they move their heads around to center on the 1/8" hole.

This tells me if the mounts are too tall, too short, cheek comb is in the wrong location (right/left), etc.

The reticle ('Cross Hairs') are simply in the wrong position between lenses and appear lighter color or 'Fuzzy' making it hard to see them.
Companies like Leupold have this one figured out, while it's cheaper/easier for some to put the reticle where it is, making it hard to distinguish or out of focus if you don't have the optic precisely aligned.

One test for your optic,
Lay it on something solid, then move your head around behind it...
Does the reticle 'Move' over the target?
Or does the target 'Move' under the reticle?

Both are signs of parallax, and optic tubes are RARELY adjusted to read correctly.
The distance it's *Supposed* to be steady, eliminating parallax is almost never correct...
You will have to do the steady rest, move your head thing at known distances to determine this for yourself.

Lastly,
It's QUITE COMMON to have loose lenses or factory misadjusted lenses in magnified optics these days.
There is a HUGE demand for 'Toys' and manufacturers simply can't keep up with demand AND quality control.
Never be afraid to send it into the manufacturer under warranty, let them sort the issues out.
Some (Like Leupold) will adjust the optic lenses for people that wear glasses so you don't have to remove glasses when you focus/shoot, and it's a free service.
(Astigmatism folks take notice)

 

[doddg]

I'd add to start at the beginning...

Your optic has a fixed eye relief, optimum distance between ocular lens (last lense) and your eye.

To determine this distance, hold your optic vertically,
Drop a piece of paper with a star shape cut into it into and against the objective lense (first lense).

Then shine a flashlight into the objective lense, hold the flashlight/optic over a piece of white paper.
Move it closer/further from the paper until the star shaped image is sharpest, this will give you a good idea of optimum eye relief.

Unless it's a 'Scout' or pistol optic made for long eye relief, it's *Usually* about the length of your thumb from tip to knuckle on second joint.

Fundamentals also come into play here, like cheek weld on the stock so your eye is properly centered in the optic centerline.
When you cheek weld against the stock, do you have to move your head around to find 'Center'?
Move back & forward to get rid of the 'Gray' area around the reticle?
These are both signs your fundamental cheek weld isn't where it needs to be.

There is a reason those older rifles with high combs, offset combs existed,
The stock was modified so the cheek weld was correct for the shooter using the rifle.
The latest version of this is adjustable length of pull and adjustable cheek rest on higher end stocks.

I fit my customers (and myself) by installing an aluminum bar with 1/8" hole drilled longways through it.
Have the customer close their eyes, shoulder and cheek weld on the rifle, and open their eyes.
I watch them to see if they move their heads around to center on the 1/8" hole.

This tells me if the mounts are too tall, too short, cheek comb is in the wrong location (right/left), etc.

The reticle ('Cross Hairs') are simply in the wrong position between lenses and appear lighter color or 'Fuzzy' making it hard to see them.
Companies like Leupold have this one figured out, while it's cheaper/easier for some to put the reticle where it is, making it hard to distinguish or out of focus if you don't have the optic precisely aligned.

One test for your optic,
Lay it on something solid, then move your head around behind it...
Does the reticle 'Move' over the target?
Or does the target 'Move' under the reticle?

Both are signs of parallax, and optic tubes are RARELY adjusted to read correctly.
The distance it's *Supposed* to be steady, eliminating parallax is almost never correct...
You will have to do the steady rest, move your head thing at known distances to determine this for yourself.

Lastly,
It's QUITE COMMON to have loose lenses or factory misadjusted lenses in magnified optics these days.
There is a HUGE demand for 'Toys' and manufacturers simply can't keep up with demand AND quality control.
Never be afraid to send it into the manufacturer under warranty, let them sort the issues out.
Some (Like Leupold) will adjust the optic lenses for people that wear glasses so you don't have to remove glasses when you focus/shoot, and it's a free service.
(Astigmatism folks take notice)

WOW! So much to digest there.
I will read that over and over, & try to practice the tips.

 

[JeepHammer]

There are better optics than nikon. Vortex or better yet, drop the optics and learn marksmanship. Learn to shoot thru the irons. Learn to shoot with a sling.....

That's not accurate, there are plenty of shooters with eyesight issues that no 'Iron' sights will compensate for.

Around 40 the adult eye flattens out, and that's why even the guys with 20/20 or better have corrective lenses later in life.

*IF* that idea were even remotely true, would the best snipers in the world (US Marines) use magnified optics?

I practiced with aperture ('Peep') sights in the Marines, our backup was iron sights, and never once shot them in the field.
(Optics never failed)...

When my eyes did flatten out as predicted, I switched from open iron to aperture sights and/or went to optics.

 

[JeepHammer]

Determining the eye relief distance (stand off) is often where I start.
Not much point in cobbling an optic onto a rifle if you want to hit anything...

If that eye relief is short or excessively long, you can bet there is a lens that's not installed properly.
Star shaped paper cut out laid on the objective, flashlight in front, paper behind.

The next thing is finding out if the parallax graduations on the optic are even close.
Lay it on something solid and at known ranges, weave your head around a little behind the optic.
Adjust until the reticle doesn't move on the target with a head shift.
If you can't find a spot on the adjustment that kills the parallax, send it back.

If it's close but not quite, you can use a paint pen to mark the exact distance locations, better than scratching your own graduations on the knob or housing... Won't void warranty, and if you send it back for adjustment, paint marks come right off.

My eyes don't agree with parallax adjustments, and places like Leupold & Burris will adjust for you so your marks line up with the factory hash marks.

NOT saying you did this at all...
I see a LOT of good tubes and cheap rings.
They cocked sideways, they crush the tube, etc.
Lapping in optics rings is always a good idea to ensure they are true with each other and properly sized.
No optic will work with a curve or 'S' bend in it...
For what ever reason, you can't make most people buy an inch pound torque wrench, they LOVE to oval or 'Cat's Eye' the tube by over torquing it, sometimes permanently crushing the tube, which IS NOT covered by warranty.

Some will just NOT have dark enough reticle.
That's usually a reticle etched into a lense, and whatever they used to darken the etch, it wasn't dark enough.
I see this in china made lenses all the time, they just don't seem to understand 'Black' for some reason...

Don't know if any of this helps, but at least it was free

 

[JeepHammer]

- gone to get training/classes about a dozen times with individuals or groups

That right there is a wonderful thing!

We run FAST race cars around corners, road tracks.
We make a lot of the suspension parts that make them fast around corners, and we have a lot of customers...

We get the same question over, and over, and over again...
"How can I make my car faster?"

Always the same answer,
"Go To Driving School"
I GUARANTEE you will be faster when you get back!

 

[doddg]

Besides a post I made about a 45 Degree Offset Picatinny Rail Mount on my rifle thread, I wonder about this below a friend pointed out to me in being any help.

Vortex Crossfire II 2-7x32mm Scout Riflescope, V-Plex Reticle CF2-31002
9.45” generous eye relief to accommodate forward mounting.

It doesn't have a parallax, so I suppose it wouldn't help at 25 yards either like the Vortex Sonora scope I have that the crosshairs would move around for my eyes when using at 25 yds.
It didn't have a parallax adjustment & suppose it was set at 50 or 100 yds??

Not sure of my diagnosis until I put it on a rifle & see how it does as 50 & 100 yds to verify.
But for now I'm set up at 25 yds for all my shooting on all my rifles till I bump up to 50 yds.

 

[Twangbanger]

Besides a post I made about a 45 Degree Offset Picatinny Rail Mount on my rifle thread, I wonder about this below a friend pointed out to me in being any help.

Vortex Crossfire II 2-7x32mm Scout Riflescope, V-Plex Reticle CF2-31002
9.45” generous eye relief to accommodate forward mounting.

It doesn't have a parallax, so I suppose it wouldn't help at 25 yards either like the Vortex Sonora scope I have that the crosshairs would move around for my eyes when using at 25 yds.
It didn't have a parallax adjustment & suppose it was set at 50 or 100 yds??

Not sure of my diagnosis until I put it on a rifle & see how it does as 50 & 100 yds to verify.
But for now I'm set up at 25 yds for all my shooting on all my rifles till I bump up to 50 yds.

I would sure look into it. 9.5" is a lot, but you're a special case. There is a dealer on INGO & they stand behind their stuff. Take some measurements on your existing rig, then see if Alan has one in stock and will let you go look at it. Only way to know. If this is the thing that prevents you from having to quit shooting rifles, it's a bargain.