Savage Muzzleloaders Blow Up - Company Sued!

[Hookeye]

Blown up gun is "metallurgy defective".

Just look at it LOL

I've seen too many morons screw up with reg black powder rigs, thought Savage making a smokeless MZ was just asking for trouble.
I consider it a "hot rod".
The race car of MZ's.

Race cars, they wreck more than regular cars. Because they are metallurgy defective.
LOL

 

[Onebad06vtx]

Never have had a problem with mine.
Has to be human error!
As in everything in life,you must pay attention to what your doing.
Some people could screw up a wet dream!

 

[indy durtdigger]

I'd be curious what a T/C, CVA, Traditions, or Knight would be like after 2-5000 shots fired through it....at close to full charge

Article was interesting though, first time I heard someone give a reason for the failure outside of "bad steel"

Check out the website that article came from. That's all the guy does after a lifetime of working for companies like Knight. Some of the muzzle loaders he uses for accuracy testing have an absurd number of shots through them and his favorites may well come a surprise.

 

[two70]

True, there are many variables with muzzleloaders. To compare failures with this model vs others is apples to oranges. BP subs, if screwed up are by design very forgiving. The variable unique to this rifle, smokeless powder, has a very small margin of error. No other mass produced muzzleloader gives shooters the option to screw up a smokeless charge. I’m going to continue to follow this story closely, but continue to use my MLii. From the start of reports of kabooms, I’ve always had a sense someone had an agenda against this rifle. This just seems like more of the same.

Edit: looking at the link to the newer article above...it is, in fact still Toby Bridges whining. He’s had an axe to grind from day one. Like I said, more of the same.

Yes, definitely on the first one. "Metallurgical deficiencies" never made much sense to me when you have nothing more than a small piece of plastic in the form of sabot to contain the pressure on the front end. In order for the barrel to give before the sabot does, the pressure would have to spike to the point where the barrel was overwhelmed before the sabot failed. Normal loads don't do that.

On the second one, iirc, Toby was one of the original Savage ML promoters and one that was continually pushing the envelope. Eventually he started doing stupid and dangerous stuff with them until he finally blew one up. Then he started blaming Savage. It's kind of hard to take his "concerns" seriously knowing just some of the stuff he was doing with those MLIIs. It is even harder to take his current theory seriously when every photo he posted in his article refutes that theory.

 

[biggen]

I'm not an expert, but that has never stopped me before. So I am guessing that some of these people are getting in trouble by getting rid of the sabot and going to a "bore rider" bullet. The sabot is the safety valve.

 

[Levergun1]

I had a CVA, I think Buckhorn 209, that I picked up at Wally World on clearance, after season one year. It was 50% off.

The owner's manual showed a max charge of loose powder as 150 grains. Now, common sense told me that CVA more than likely proofed the barrels to a double charge.

This was when the Savage smokeless was first coming onto the scene so I figured that I would do some trials.

150 grains of BP with a 250 grain bullet would put you up in the 35,000-40,000 psi range. Knowing that a double charge of BP is not going to double the pressures, because a lot of it would be pushed out the barrel, unburnt, I calculated that one might see a 40% increase in pressures. That would put you somewhere up in the 50-55K range.

I started with a very mild load of Hodgdon Lil Gun (high 30's) and worked up four grains from there. I was pushing the 250 grain bullets at 2200 fps and was getting MOA accuracy at 200 yards. Never pushed these pistol bullets or the gun any harder than that and I had the rifle for many years and stacked up a lot of deer, at a time when most guys were still using shotgun slugs at 75 yards.

And yes, I destroyed the barrel, rather than selling it and parted out the rest of the gun. After parting it out, I ended up having $25 in the gun.

Would I ever recommend this to someone else? Heck no, I wouldn't.

 

[Trapper Jim]

My prayers go out to any sportsman that have been injured by gun accidents that are truly due to inferior workmanship. Operator error however my empathy turns to sympathy. As the coffin nails by ambulance chasers that helped destroy Remington more than likely will be used against Savage I hope there is a good outcome for both parties. I am not saying this is the case here but it has been my experience that the refined story in every gun accident may not be true to what really happened. Unlike newer cars and planes with black boxes, gun problems are usually on this side of the sights.‍

 

[natdscott]

Due respect to everybody: This story is basically over.

Savage discontinued the ML II over a decade ago, after having been assassinated in the court of public opinion by a couple a**holes—one of whom was a “famous” muzzleloading writer—that almost certainly blew their rifles up by doing things outside the design and published manual.

From their stupidity, “we” all learned to change the vent liners on the schedule that Savage said to do so, don’t “eff” with the hole diameter, don’t use duplex charges, probably duplex sabots aren’t a good idea, and on and on.

“We” lost “ourselves” a good product.

But it’s pretty well been hashed out at this point, with no replacement rifle on the horizon.

 

[Hookeye]

Bad Bull if you gots the money

 

[two70]

There's not a whole lot of point any more to building smokeless muzzleloaders with Blackhorn 209 and the newer CVA rifles being available now that can nearly match the performance and the clean burning of smokeless without the stigma. It's not really worth the risk of idiots (and even worse, morons with an agenda) for manufacturers to build a smokeless muzzleloader now. The Savage was a great rifle but self important idiots will ruin almost anything.

 

[Levergun1]

There's not a whole lot of point any more to building smokeless muzzleloaders with Blackhorn 209 and the newer CVA rifles being available now that can nearly match the performance and the clean burning of smokeless without the stigma. It's not really worth the risk of idiots (and even worse, morons with an agenda) for manufacturers to build a smokeless muzzleloader now. The Savage was a great rifle but self important idiots will ruin almost anything.

LOL
All of these BP substitutes are nothing more than glorified smokeless powder. If they were not, they would all fall under the same restrictions as real black powder, an explosive, not a propellant.
These companies are building "smokeless" powder rifles, they are just not calling them that.
Think about some of the smokiest, dirtiest, faster burning powders that you can, like Red Dot and think of BP substitutes.

 

[two70]

LOL
All of these BP substitutes are nothing more than glorified smokeless powder. If they were not, they would all fall under the same restrictions as real black powder, an explosive, not a propellant.
These companies are building "smokeless" powder rifles, they are just not calling them that.
Think about some of the smokiest, dirtiest, faster burning powders that you can, like Red Dot and think of BP substitutes.

Glorified smokeless powder? More like over engineered, flaws deliberately designed into it almost smokeless powder. Black powder substitutes still aren't quite as energetic as smokeless and won't produce similar pressures with anything resembling reasonable amounts. It's all a game some manufacturers play so that they can continue to turn out cheap rifles not built to handle higher pressures.

 

[Levergun1]

Well, I had to read that a couple of times...
You seem to be mixing the characteristics of BP and smokeless into a red headed step child.

BTW, I buy my BP in 25 pound bags. Yeah, I shoot a bit of BP.

BP will achieve higher MV with lower pressures. There is no need for a stronger rifle build. That's why BP rifles can take 120-150 grain charges, because the pressures are not there.

A .58 caliber replica of a German Jaeger will handle 120 grains of BP just as handily as a CVA inline will.

 

[two70]

I'm really not even sure what you're arguing here.

Black powder simply can't achieve the muzzle velocity of smokeless powders (or some BP substitutes), hence why we use smokeless powder in modern firearms. As you state, even a 150 grain black powder charge is low pressure. Black powder substitutes are specifically designed to similar pressure/performance ranges as opposed to that of true smokeless performance. If BP substitutes were true smokeless powders with smokeless level performance, manufacturers would have to build and proof their rifles to smokeless level pressures (standard smokeless powders, not those formulated to replicate BP).

How do you think that German Jaeger replica would hold up to 150-170 grains of Blackhorn as some CVAs will? It might survive a few shots but I certainly wouldn't want to be anywhere near it when it was touched off.

 

[Levergun1]

BP substitutes are like real BP in pressures, only. If they burnt like BP, they would be regulated like BP. That's what I am saying.

One of the main reasons that the Savage could use smokeless was because it called for a few types of smokeless powder with certain burn rates. You couldn't just dump any type of smokeless powder down them. (Though, I am sure many guys did)

You say that BP substitutes are specially formulated to get similar pressures as BP and not smokeless and then you turn right around and say that a Jaeger replica could never handle the pressures of Blackhorn, like a CVA could but that the CVA is cheaply made and couldn't handle regular smokeless powder pressures. ‍‍‍

 

[G192127]

I have shot lots of BP, and i have to chuckle to myself when I hear of"3 pellets" or 150 grs of BP or an appropriate substitute. My rule of thumb is the old "45/70". 45cal and 70 grs of BP has killed alot of men. 70 grs of 3f,or 2f Swiss will do the job on ANYTHING.(and that's with a roundball).

 

[Nazgul]

The 58 caliber Kibler Colonial I have shoots 100 gr very accurately. Less will work, but at 100 grs the group is consistently tighter. This is BP, it is a flintlock.

Don

 

[natdscott]

Oh, I remembered I didn’t care.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

Is there a recall? If I have one can I get a new one from them?

 

[scout5]

Interesting thread.
I have a SMI smokeless muzzle loader I haven't fired yet though I've had it for awhile. I have data for several loads. The gun is supposed to be capable of long distances but when I had it put together I asked about a good 250 yard load and that is the load I bought supplies for. I do not plan to push the pressure limits of the gun.