Sage Dynamics RDS Handgun (Lebanon, August 2021) Review

[brchixwing]

Highly recommend this course! Aaron Cowan's videos on YouTube are great, and his in person classes are even better. He is a no-BS trainer that develops his curriculum very thoughtfully for the real world, and clearly delineates what is best for civilians / LE and why (and if you ask questions, he goes down the rabbit hole for logic). Aaron doesn't just lecture and run drills, he pro-actively evaluates each shooter's form & targets. I took the course with a few friends and we all found the class to be a tremendous value add, I plan on re-taking next year.

Key takeaways worth sharing

• The RDS on a handgun is a diagnostic tool, every time you take a shot you have real time data on your shooting. I found myself adjusting my grip between drills, consciously watching how the dot moved when I presented the gun and more importantly when I was shooting. Watching how the dot bounces during shots tells you a lot about your grip.
• At self defense distance, don't worry about parallax. You can accurately fire the handgun with the dot on the far edges of the screen. For me personally, I shaved off time on every shot by not consciously centering the dot at all on the glass.
• You don't need to have the dot perfectly centered, take the shot when the range of movement of the dot approximates the size of the parameters (we used the A-Zone on his targets).
• You quickly realize where the dot should be with common sense but you should practice finding it from different positions. Day one we practiced a bit from high ready, low ready, post reload.
• You can accurately shoot your handgun with the front window completely obscured. We masked off the front of our optics and shot a few drills, even at distance this works very well.
• You can generally shoot your handgun with the entire sight obscured, the optic can be used to point shoot, but you will shoot higher than you expect
• Clearing type 3 malfunctions (double feed), strip the mag and rack it hard, don't toss your mag -- its still good if it did not confetti. Philosophically, another takeaway from this drill was that many trainers teach things "they way things have always been done", which is not prudent.
• Great trainers don't waste class time zeroing and telling irrelevant stories on the line, we wasted no time at all during the entire weekend. Everyone came with their weapons zeroed and even during our breaks we discussed gear.
• If you take Aaron's class, he has you shoot a "qualifier" drill at the end, that demonstrates that you were proficient & passed the course. This may come in hand should you need an expert for testimony, Aaron knows how to make a case.

Logistics for future reference:

• He started his class at 9AM sharp with a short safety brief, no zeroing as mentioned so come with your handgun ready to go. Have mags to carry at least 60 rounds on the line. Round count was well below the stated 1000, est. 300-350 per day.
• The class was suitable for different levels of experience. I was relatively new (<1000 rounds through RDS handgun prior), and some guys have shot RDS handgun for years.
• You can run any RDS handgun, LEO's shot their service weapons, some civilians ran fancy tricked out guns, I comfortably ran a subcompact (Glock 43x) the entire weekend.
• You can run any holster, LEO's ran their duty belts, Aaron runs an appendix IWB rig (which is impressive with a light and comp), I shot from concealment with an OWB

 

[hammerd13]

@brchixwing...

What distance do you recommend you zero a red dot? 7 yards? 20 yards?

Just curious what you did/recommend for a self-defense handgun. I'm finding that a 7 yard zero is good at that range, but is fairly high at distance, whereas a 20 yard zero is good at distance and just a smidge low at 7 yards.

 

[MCgrease08]

I zeroed mine at 25 yards, mainly because that's what my reticle (ACSS Vulcan) is designed for. But that's also what Aaron Cowan recommended in the class too. Some other instructors recommend a 10 or 15 yard zero. 15 yards seems to have the least amount of variation in terms of POA/POI from 50 yards and in.

As long as you know you holds at various distances It really just depends on personal preference. I did a lot of number crunching with a ballistics calculator when I first got my red dot. Here are my findings.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/new-to-the-carry-optics-game.478196/post-8661671

 

[hammerd13]

I zeroed mine at 25 yards, mainly because that's what my reticle (ACSS Vulcan) is designed for. But that's also what Aaron Cowan recommended in the class too. Some other instructors recommend a 10 or 15 yard zero. 15 yards seems to have the least amount of variation in terms of POA/POI from 50 yards and in.

As long as you know you holds at various distances It really just depends on personal preference. I did. Alit of number crunching with a ballistics calculator when I first got my red dot. Here are my findings.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/new-to-the-carry-optics-game.478196/post-8661671

Thanks @MCgrease08 ! Good info. Much appreciated.

 

[brchixwing]

I zeroed mine at 25 yards, mainly because that's what my reticle (ACSS Vulcan) is designed for. But that's also what Aaron Cowan recommended in the class too. Some other instructors recommend a 10 or 15 yard zero. 15 yards seems to have the least amount of variation in terms of POA/POI from 50 yards and in.

As long as you know you holds at various distances It really just depends on personal preference. I did a lot of number crunching with a ballistics calculator when I first got my red dot. Here are my findings.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/new-to-the-carry-optics-game.478196/post-8661671

@hammerd13 , I am zeroed at 25 yards as well, think its a good compromise if you like to shoot far. I zeroed at 10 yards initially then pushed it out to 25 yards when I noticed how the height over bore was immaterial on a 6" target at 10 yards. What is your setup? I suspect mine is more forgiving because the 507k co-witnesses standard height sights, but Pistol RDS' ride very low in general.

Anecdotally, with a 25 yard zero on a 507k, I can hit a 100 yard gong but still shot well for the entire Sage course (pretty much all under 25 yards) using a subcompact Glock 43x and remanufactured ammo! I shot between @MCgrease08 and @ditcherman on the line, think we all had comparable a zero & it never limited us at close range.

 

[ditcherman]

Great summary!! Spot on!

I shot between brchixwing and some British perv who kept drawing nipples on my target. He also kept shooting at the pelvic area markings on my target, I know I wasn’t shooting that low.

Aarons individual instruction impressed me, and he was completely approachable. I have lot of takeaways from the class, and a lot things that will be good practice moving forward.
There is no end to self improvement (ok well it’s a long way away for me) using his small a zone and tight par times.

Everybody got their 5 minutes of dry fire in today?

 

[MCgrease08]

Great summary!! Spot on!

I shot between brchixwing and some British perv who kept drawing nipples on my target. He also kept shooting at the pelvic area markings on my target, I know I wasn’t shooting that low.

Aarons individual instruction impressed me, and he was completely approachable. I have lot of takeaways from the class, and a lot things that will be good practice moving forward.
There is no end to self improvement (ok well it’s a long way away for me) using his small a zone and tight par times.

Everybody got their 5 minutes of dry fire in today?

Actually yes. I downloaded a shot timer app for my phone and was running draws from concealment to presentation on a one inch circle to trigger press, trying to hit a sub two second par time. It's not easy.

I can make the time, but not confident at all that the accuracy would be there if it were live fire. I'd be in the vicinity, but not many would have been in the circle.

Needless to say, my presentation and grip need refinement. I plan to do some heat mapping later.

 

[hammerd13]

I am zeroed at 25 yards as well, think its a good compromise if you like to shoot far. I zeroed at 10 yards initially then pushed it out to 25 yards when I noticed how the height over bore was immaterial on a 6" target at 10 yards. What is your setup? I suspect mine is more forgiving because the 507k co-witnesses standard height sights, but Pistol RDS' ride very low in general.

Anecdotally, with a 25 yard zero on a 507k, I can hit a 100 yard gong but still shot well for the entire Sage course (pretty much all under 25 yards) using a subcompact Glock 43x and remanufactured ammo! I shot between @MCgrease08 and @ditcherman on the line, think we all had comparable a zero & it never limited us at close range.

Great information! I've not taken the leap to a RDS on any of my "real" pistols, most of which are Glocks. I've trained for so long with iron sights, that I'm hesitant to make the leap to RDS...as I'm sure that the presentation will need to be slightly different.

I do have one Ruger Mark III .22lr target pistol with a Burris RDS. It's fun to shoot and very accurate, but the RDS frustrates me...because it doesn't present like all of my Glocks. A big part of this difference is the dissimilar grip angles (Ruger Mark III vs any Glock). The other difference is my perceived height over bore of a RDS, but you've indicated this may not be the case with newer systems. These two factors (on my Mark III) make my time to find the dot painfully slow...but once I've got it, it's quick and accurate.

I'm getting to the age where I can't bring the front iron sight into focus with my corrective lenses I wear every day for distance, so a RDS will be in my future at some point.

Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[Brad69]

Ditcherman,
Show me on the target where the Brit touched you!

 

[ditcherman]

Ditcherman,
Show me on the target where the Brit touched you!

 

[ECS686]

I zeroed mine at 25 yards, mainly because that's what my reticle (ACSS Vulcan) is designed for. But that's also what Aaron Cowan recommended in the class too. Some other instructors recommend a 10 or 15 yard zero. 15 yards seems to have the least amount of variation in terms of POA/POI from 50 yards and in.

As long as you know you holds at various distances It really just depends on personal preference. I did a lot of number crunching with a ballistics calculator when I first got my red dot. Here are my findings.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/new-to-the-carry-optics-game.478196/post-8661671

I took Handgun Combatives MRDS class As far as zeroing distance it was basically up to the student but he mentioned 7 or 10 yards as best At 7 to 10 you will still be within a fraction at 25. No different than irons.

But to each their own

 

[hammerd13]

I took Handgun Combatives MRDS class As far as zeroing distance it was basically up to the student but he mentioned 7 or 10 yards as best At 7 to 10 you will still be within a fraction at 25. No different than irons.

But to each their own

Thank you for the info. I need to jump into RDS soon, on my 9mm platform pistols for sure.

So far, my point of reference (with respect to RDSs) is on a .22lr platform pistol. In that scenario, the 7 yard vs 25 yard zero can make a BIG difference on POI. I suppose whatever you choose for a zero, you just need to understand your distances/offsets.

The RDS market is changing so rapidly right now, it's hard to settle on one in particular...before they are changed again!

Really appreciate all the feedback and original report by @brchixwing. Makes we want to pursue this.

 

[Brad69]

Well Ditcherman he only was twisting nipples!

Did I tell you what he did at our night fire ? I felt like Cumo was there!

 

[ditcherman]

Well Ditcherman he only was twisting nipples!

Did I tell you what he did at our night fire ? I felt like Cumo was there!

No, but you should, it’s too bad he’s not here to defend himself.

 

[ditcherman]

Something I’ll add in all seriousness to this review; I haven’t attended a lot of classes but the guys at this one were really good shooters. Lots of good looking targets IMO.

 

[nad63]

Lot's of good info already provided so just adding my $.02

Class was capped I believe at 16. Aaron was the sole instructor and certainly had no problem keeping everyone under control. He constantly walked the line and provided individual attention when needed. He offered precise instruction or directions onto what you needed to do to fix/address your problem/s. He had specialty targets on hand and the only limiting factor was how fast the students could get the targets changed out. We started right on time and it was rapid paced and constant for two days.

This class was designed to make you a better RDS shooter from the onset. You were forced to pick up the dot quicker or you simply wouldn't keep up. Everyone will likely find the dot eventually but his drills and feedback shorten the learning curve, reinforce what you should already know and provide ways to monitor and improve instantly. The instant feedback provided by the red dot allowed real time adjustments. This is something that I suspect most people knew but Aaron drove it home and forced us to address it relentlessly over the two days to where it is almost now intuitive (I said almost!).
He could, and would demo most of the drills and for the most part nail them. He is a modest and a very accomplished shooter and this is also beneficial to learning how to do things correctly. Some of the drills were a mere 1.5 to 2.5 secs for multiple shots so watching someone’s perfected technique is helpful. Think recoil management and also it’s essential you get the grip correct. A lot of the class/my problems were grip related one way or another so that was somewhat of an eye opener for me. Small changes can make a major difference.

Red dot Zero never really came up. As long as you had your gun zeroed you were pretty much good to go. I’ve gone round about with different red dot zero’s and am back to where I started. One this for sure though is to take your time, use a rest and get a good zero. I overhear a discussion how people/police departments will spend all kinds of money on guns and gear and then use a barrel of simple stand and attempt a 25 yard zero. I believe he mentioned three shots within a three inch circle/group at 25. Take time to do it right and you don’t have to second guess yourself. Make sure screws are tight on RDS and Irons….one front sight manifest itself during the course and no other sight related issues that I was aware (assuming you see this as an issue since it was identified and rectified).

Accuracy was a huge part of this class as it provided the data we all needed. WE applied the data to hone our skills, diagnose what we were doing wrong or when we reached our limitations, whether it be speed or distance or combination of both. Constant reinforcement of re acquiring the dot from various common and not so common positions was continually utilized, from the holster, low ready, high ready, temple index… the common theme being acquire the dot quickly and know where it’s coming into view from if it’s not there when you present. Another big one was what’s the perfect sight picture for you to take the shot and what’s acceptable. There’s always going to be some movement but what’s perfect and what’s acceptable.

The class was exactly what I wanted and more. The students were top notch and no delays since everyone squared away and ready to roll. We all got the opportunity to individually compete against the timer and each other multiple times. There’s something humbling about trying to complete a 2.5 sec drill and you hear someone already shooting at a 1 inch circle as you are still on your draw stroke. Some very impressive shooting for sure and I’d wager everyone improved and left being a better red dot shooter by far.

A side note that at least two different Indiana police departments were in attendence and their departments have adopted the red dot for service pistols.

I would recommend this for sure and plan practicing the new skills and most likely retake this one next year.

 

[ArmedRPh]

Actually yes. I downloaded a shot timer app for my phone and was running draws from concealment to presentation on a one inch circle to trigger press, trying to hit a sub two second par time. It's not easy.

I can make the time, but not confident at all that the accuracy would be there if it were live fire. I'd be in the vicinity, but not many would have been in the circle.

Needless to say, my presentation and grip need refinement. I plan to do some heat mapping later.

@MCgrease08 ...could you let us know what shot timer app you picked up? Something recommended by Aaron or just something you picked off the app store? Thanks. -ArmedRPh

 

[MCgrease08]

@MCgrease08 ...could you let us know what shot timer app you picked up? Something recommended by Aaron or just something you picked off the app store? Thanks. -ArmedRPh

It's called ISPC shot timer. It's super basic, but it let's you set a delayed beep, set par times, track splits, etc.

It's not something anyone recommended. I think I did a search in Google Play store for shot timer apps and this had decent reviews.

It's not all that intuitive, but once I figured out how it works it was pretty easy.

 

[MCgrease08]

I'll add a few more of my thoughts on the class. As an instructor, Aaron Cowan teaches drills that break things down into categories for accuracy, time and distance. They are meant to help isolate those required skills so deficiencies and weakness show through.

He talked a lot about finding your personal speed limit, basically the place where you're under control and able to make good hits as quickly as possible. It does no good to shoot fast if you can't be reasonably accurate. And it's not that beneficial to slow fire and make bullseyes if you can't do it while on the clock or under stress in a self defense situation. His drills all have an element of collecting the right data to set a baseline of your skills and push yourself to get better. If the goal is to draw from concealment and get a hit on target in under two seconds, then the timer doesn't lie. You can either do it or not. So then you break the draw down into the mechanics of it. Am I consistently clearing my cover garment? Am I wasting motion when grasping the grip on the draw? is my support hand working in tandem with the strong hand? How is my firing grip? What does my group tell me?

Prior to the class I had seen a lot of his YouTube videos breaking down and demomstrating various drills, but seeing it in person and shooting it helped me make sense of them a lot more.

As others have said, there wasn't much fluff at all or time spent talking about zeroing or how to use the optic. We were expected to be at least familiar with our gear. The first day was spent shooting everything from 15 yards and in. Day two we ranged from 3 to 25 yards. That's when we took the skills we learned up close and modified them for longer distances.

I was expecting high quality instruction and we got it. We are so lucky to have access to the Lebanon Police department range and the nationally renowned trainers it attracts. Jason does a phenomenal job with that.

I really enjoyed this class and left a better shooter than when I showed up. I feel very good about the drills I learned and how I can apply them to my practice to get better. I'm also sold on the red dot life now. I don't think I will ever get another defensive pistol that can't accommodate a red dot. It really is so much faster once you get a little practice time behind it.

ETA: I shot this class with my VP9-B outfitted with a Holosun 507c with ACSS Vulcan reticle. You can see my thoughts on how the optic performed here:

'New Holosun pistol red dot - Holosun 507C ACSS Vulcan reticle' https://www.indianagunowners.com/th...-507c-acss-vulcan-reticle.500518/post-8844189

Also the technique for clearing double feeds came in very handy on the afternoon of day two when I thought it would be a good idea to monkey around and mix and match parts from my back-up gun. It was a terrible idea and caused several double feeds which I had the opportunity to clear before I switched things back.

 

[jrm]

Fun fact. Aaron will be back next year for a couple classes. We are working on getting the dates nailed down. It will probably be a RDS course and either RDS instructor or a carbine class