Remington 700 Accuracy Issues

jeffsqartan

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I am trying to diagnose an accuracy issue with my Remington 700. It's a virgin action with a 12.5" 308 KAK barrel and sits in a Pork Sword chassis. The barrel was cleaned thoroughly on Thursday. I made roughly 100 rounds of varying types today. All loads have Trailboss powder and large pistol primers. The cases were all full length sized. No crimp has been applied to any round. Each charge was worked up in .5gr increments and none of them showed signs of over pressure. All shots taken were at 50 yards. Very little, if any, wind.

110gr Vmax with 12.0-14.0gr of powder
125gr Speer TNT with 10.5-13.5gr of powder
150gr Hornady FMJ with 9.7gr of powder
215gr powder-coated lead with 10.0-13.5gr of powder

Included is a picture that shows a red dot, my point of aim, along with 5 shots around it. Those shots are circled and labeled in order taken. You'll see that there are two "groups" here. The top group is three shots, consisting of my 1st, 2nd, and 5th shot. The bottom group consists of shots 3 and 4. I took all of those shots in a 2 minute time period, and the gun was already warm/hot. Every load that I listed above was exhibiting this kind of issue. Out of any 5 round group, I would get 2 or 3 shots that would group around my point of aim, and two or three would drop considerably low. In some cases, there was more than 6" of drop.

A couple of weeks ago, I purchased some 168gr Federal Gold Medal Match. I shot it, and the 150gr FMJ load, at 100 yards. The result is also attached. You'll notice that while the 150gr ammo has a very tight horizontal spread, the vertical spread is quite far. Those shots did not "string" in a specific direction, IE the shots were not getting progressively lower or progressively higher.

Prior to this barrel, I had a 10.5" barrel. I had similar results. I could not get a group better than 3 MOA at 100 yards. I do not recall vertical stringing like this, though. Just terrible groups.

Please, if you have suggestions, I would love to hear them.
 

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MrSmitty

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Those loads might not work with a short barrel like this, find someone with a full length barrel 700 and see what happens....Why the short barrel?...is this a pistol?
 

Tombs

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Those shots did not "string" in a specific direction, IE the shots were not getting progressively lower or progressively higher.

This is a problem behind the trigger.

I'd recommend doing some breathing exercises before shooting a group. You need to get your heart rate under control, and be observant of it in your reticle.
 

avboiler11

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What optic and scope base/rings are you using?

What kind of trigger are you using?

Are you shooting off a bench or prone, bipod or rest?

Are you able to get a repeatable, consistent cheek weld (or otherwise consistent position looking through the optic)?

Is the KAK barrel installed with a barrel nut? Is the nut contacting the chassis any, and is your recoil lug fully seated in the chassis allowing the action to properly mate to the chassis? How did you headspace this barrel on installation?

Can you consistently shoot 1" @ 100yd or better with a regular rifle?

If a 308 won't shoot 168gr FGMM something in the system is wrong, and that something could be the trigger puller as well.
 

DocIndy

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What’s the twist rate on the barrel? Was this to be set up for heavy 220gr subsonic loads and a suppressor?

Who put this together? A reputable smith or???
 
Last edited:

JeepHammer

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What optic and scope base/rings are you using?

What kind of trigger are you using?

Are you shooting off a bench or prone, bipod or rest?

Are you able to get a repeatable, consistent cheek weld (or otherwise consistent position looking through the optic)?

Is the KAK barrel installed with a barrel nut? Is the nut contacting the chassis any, and is your recoil lug fully seated in the chassis allowing the action to properly mate to the chassis? How did you headspace this barrel on installation?

Can you consistently shoot 1" @ 100yd or better with a regular rifle?

If a 308 won't shoot 168gr FGMM something in the system is wrong, and that something could be the trigger puller as well.

Much of the same went through my mind.

Torque of action screws?,
Does the stock have pillars?
Is the action contacting pillars?
Is the recoil lug bedded? Or even making contact with stock?
Is the barrel properly crowned after cutting super short?
Its a Rem 700, is the bolt/cocking piece rotating screwing up trigger break?

Muzzle velocity vs bullet weight?
Since it's an aftermarket barrel, how does the headspace look?
How far are bullets off the lands?

Optics are always a question unless verified.
Correct eye relief?
Focus?
Anything loose in the mounts?
Reticle loose in the tube?
Is the optic mounted at correct height so your cheek weld brings you to center of the optic?

Then there is the shooter.
When people ask how to shoot more 'Accurately' the answer is always the same,
Get a competent shooting coach and take lessons.
Absolutely EVERYONE will benefit from proper instruction (or peer review) if it's just to keep you practicing proper fundamentals.
 

jeffsqartan

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Hopefully this answers some of the main questions in this thread.

The barrel is a 1:10 twist. Can't believe I left that out of my original post.
The action was assembled, twice with two different barrels, by Allen M.

It's in a Pork Sword chassis. The barrel nut I'm using has an outer threading designed to accept AR10 rails. As such, I have an AR10 rail installed onto that barrel nut. Prior to three weeks ago, I had no such rail and was using the supplied MLOK rail that attaches directly to the chassis, allowing the barrel to float entirely on its own.

Trigger is a factory trigger.

The barrel was bought at 12.5". It's a KAK model. Allen did not mention anything about the crown and as there is a muzzle device on it now, I can't easily say whether it looks good or bad. And with the threading, I'm still not sure how much I can really decipher.

I do not have a chronograph, so I cannot do anything other than guess muzzle velocity. I have tried multiple loads, with the bullets listed above and others, using Trailboss, H335, and CFE 223. Nothing has ever shot better than 3moa at 100 yards. Yesterday's outing was extremely bad.
Just some bullets used in the last year: 110gr Vmax, 125 Speer TNT and Hornady FMJ, 150gr Hornady FMJ, 168gr Federal GMM, 169gr Sierra MK, 215gr powder coated lead, and 220gr Sierra MK. The best group this gun has ever seen was with the 10.5" barrel and was a 3moa group at 100 yards. That load would still hit steel consistently in a driving wind at 200 yards, but I still want something tighter.

I don't have a modified case for 308 yet, so I don't know how far off the lands I am. I figured, using a variety of bullets from 110gr all the way to 220gr, that I would have found something pretty darn close at this point. In my own 556 gun, I don't even bother with loading .020 from the lands. I have two loads that shoot very well in that gun (one is sub-moa) and so I just run them. Chasing the lands didn't really do me much there, I don't see this gun being any different. Maybe I'm close minded there, but after the amount of ammo I've put through it in the last year and not finding a single round that shoots under 3moa at 100 yards, I have a rough time believing that loading past mag length is going to fix my issue.

The optic I'm running is a Primary Arms 4-14 FFP scope. It was like $250 and while not the best, I think it's done quite well. I have tried two other optics on this gun, with no change. Either all of my scopes are bad, or something else is at play.
I have two different scope bases. Both are made by EGW. One is a 0 moa and the other a 20.
When I got home yesterday, I double checked the scope and mount and base - all were solid. Nothing was loose.

I've adjusted this gun more times in the last year than I can count. I am quite confident in the scope, as it is/was brand new. I've used another scope, one that I've shot 1/2 moa at 100 yards with, and results were still terrible.

To quickly cover my own abilities: I'm a competent shot, have shot sub-moa multiple times, and even yesterday I was putting in 1" holes at 50 with my 300blk, using my own reloads, a 1-6x scope, front bag only, and honestly not really trying. Sorry, but I posted this in three other places and have spent way too much time explaining that I'm not a loose nut behind the gun and I'm more than capable of an MOA shot at a bare minimum. I'm just kind of tired of answering that question.

Last thing: my scope base has become suspect. Another response I received was to check my scope base. That user had the same issues I had, noticed that the base looked beat up, swapped to another base, problem resolved.
I don't know a ton about R700 scope bases. I thought EGW was a trusted brand. However, I did noticed some marks when I removed my scope. It does appear that maybe the scope was still moving, even though everything was tight. A new base has been purchased from Mcrees Precision. Hopefully it gets here before the weekend.
 

jeffsqartan

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And what does factory match ammo do?
168gr Federal Gold Medal Match did something like 8moa at 100 yards. The second picture of my original post has two groups circled - the group on the right was the Federal GMM.

Make sure to use blue loctite on your base screws.

As I said before, if 168gr FGMM doesn't group, something else in the system is jacked.
Will do. I know that the screws on the current base are not loose. It's almost like the metal was too weak for the scope? There are marks on the base as if the cross bolt was hitting, but I know that my rings were tight to the base.
 

Victory106

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I see that in your updated post you changed your scope base. Another thing to look into is lap your scope rings. I am currently taking a gunsmithing course at SDI and in one of my prior classes we lapped scope rings as part of one of the hands-on assignments. Never in my life would I have pinned scope rings as a culprit, but it is possible. Some scope rings are better than others, but that doesn't mean that they don't need to be lapped. What kind of scope rings do you have on your rifle?
 

natdscott

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Honestly, other than saying “you have a serious problem”…

…if you are getting 8” patterns from 168 GMM, there’s nothing the internet can do for you.

You need to find the source(s) of movement and eliminate them. Barrel joint, bedding, scope mounts/bases, the SCOPE itself….
 

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