Red dots on handguns are for play (change my mind)

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  • ShimmeringTrees

    Amish Jack Wagon
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    I will be 67 this year. My eyes were never great. I started wearing glasses for nearsightedness around age 11. Over 35 years ago my eyesight was measured at 20/2000, without glasses. Recently I asked the eye Dr what it is now and they said they don't measure that high. Off the chart. I wanted to preface my remarks with this info because so many people say their eyesight is not what it once was as an excuse. Well, mine never was.

    Unlike many older shooters that are either new to red dot sights or do not like them; I have been using them since 1995 on certain handguns. I started using them in bullseye matches (local thru Camp Perry) and a local PPC league. I have them on some handguns but not on all. I do not think it's a good idea to put a red sot on all your guns. I still practice with iron sights. That's the only way to stay proficient with them. In the PPC league, I alternate between irons and a dot to keep in practice with each. I also use both in steel challenge matches.

    A few weeks ago in the PPC league (which I run now at Blythe's), we did a Bill Drill. Since we run 6 shooters on the line at once, fastest time is tough to do and takes too long, so I set up par times. Below is the COF. When we did this drill last, I brought a S&W M&P 9mm. This is not a gun I shoot often. I usually shoot a revolver when I shoot CF in the league. I have one slide with iron sights and another with a red dot. I thought it would be good to compare their scores to see which I could shoot beter in those times. Not only were my iron sight scores better, but I went over time often with the red dot. I did not go over time with iron sights. I have no doubt that at farther distances I would do better with the dot but at what is considered normal self defence distances, I see the dot as being slower.

    Granted these are my results and YMMV, but I think the red dot will slow you down at close distances. If you want to prove to yourself that I'm right or wrong, try your own test like I did. Use the same frame if you can so there are fewer variables. Either way, the drill shoulld be fun and insightful.

    B-29 target, facing backward (from low ready)
    Distance Par Time
    6 shots 3 yards 4 seconds
    6 shots 3 yards 3 seconds
    6 shots 3 yards 2 seconds
    6 shots 5 yards 4 seconds
    6 shots 5 yards 3 seconds
    6 shots 7 yards 4 seconds
    6 shots 7 yards 3 seconds
    42 rounds total


    Very impressive drill, and results. Shot group? And no it's not for insult, it's your drill with those speeds, excited to hear how well you did.
     

    ShimmeringTrees

    Amish Jack Wagon
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    Well, I'm not saying I will have success in the first range session, lol. I know myself better than that.

    But I'm thinking I will run it at 5 yards and see if I hit a par time of 3 seconds, all alphas. Then back up to 10 yards and do it again. Then once I achieve that, I'll push the speed more.

    That is if I ever achieve those scores.

    It really has me thinking this could be a good way to work on what I know are some of my weak points: inconsistent grip, pushing for speed without regards to accuracy. Not doing enough reps of a singular exercise, i.e. doing too many varied drills.

    I'm glad now that I made the posts I did in this thread! Improvements coming my way!




    Don't mind the how to shoot a pistol. I'm not saying your stupid. Skip to the grip part. Maybe you've seen this kid, maybe you don't like him. Either way, I learn a lot from him, because 1.) He has a lot of money to spend on ammo, 2.) He uses the ammo to train, 3.) Because of 1 and 2, he has a lot of experience.
     

    gregkl

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    Don't mind the how to shoot a pistol. I'm not saying your stupid. Skip to the grip part. Maybe you've seen this kid, maybe you don't like him. Either way, I learn a lot from him, because 1.) He has a lot of money to spend on ammo, 2.) He uses the ammo to train, 3.) Because of 1 and 2, he has a lot of experience.

    I used to watch this guy all the time. He put out some good stuff. Lately he switched to long winded stories and such so I dropped off.

    I understand cerebrally what I need to do. It's the execution that is taking me time. I know I'm not gripping it tight enough. Thanks for posting it. I watched it again.
     

    Skip

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    I will posit that everyone is better off buying practice ammo for their edc instead of a red dot.

    - good shooters point instinctively within typical self defense range
    - red dots are electronic, consume batteries, and are an additional failure point
    - red dots add weight
    - unless all your pistols have red dots, you have inconsistent sight pictures across arms
    - i personally find them unnatural vs irons, admittedly this is likely a training issue
    - all of these points also apply to lasers

    In conclusion i believe red dots are a fad. They look cool and may be a status symbol.

    Are the above ideas incorrect or do the pros of red dots outweigh these cons?

    Pros:
    Accurate shots in the dark
    While I agree wholeheartedly that folks here in America need to practice with their handguns more, I wanna ask: Why do you think it has to be one or the other?
    I’m 67 now, practice (read: run handgun drills) at least twice a month or more, hundreds of rounds each time, and have RDS on every CCW pistol I own.
    I reload and have for 40 years, stocking up on supplies all along the way. At one point, I acquired 480lb of wheel weights for $30. Bought a few molds and cast for every pistol caliber I shoot. At one point, I could load a box of 9mm for around $.50/box (50 cents). I kind of planned ahead way back then though.

    Your cons above are all a moot point if you can’t see the irons, many of us that are “annually challenged" can’t see them without visual aids. A RDS solves that and allows very accurate shots at distance too.
     

    Whip_McCord

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    Very impressive drill, and results. Shot group? And no it's not for insult, it's your drill with those speeds, excited to hear how well you did.
    We shot 42 shots on a B-29 target turned so we just saw a blank target w/o scoring rings. Perfect score would be 420. Below are my scores.

    Iron sights: 388-9X
    Red dot: 368-8X I went past the par time on some of the shots


    I also wanted to try a laser, so I bought a cheap ($25) one for playing at the range to determine if I wanted a good one. It looks like it would be the fastest option, but it died while I was shooting the laser for score. Another guy, much younger and better eyesight than me, did shoot iron sights and a laser. We have pretty close scores with iron sights in our league. Sometimes he beats me and other times I beat him. Below are his scores with a laser and irons. In this limited test it looks like a laser is great for close, fast hits on a target. While I was sighting in my laser, it seemed to be the case for me too, but I did not get to finish the drill with a laser. DON'T buy a cheap laser for a carry gun would be the takeaway.

    Laser: 395-23X
    Iron sights: 383-20X
     

    MrGiggles

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    The failure point thing worried me, but I have co-witness sights so I try to train with both. Granted I am pretty new to guns, and still suck with both. I guess I'm essentially getting only half the training with each sight picture than I would with just one, but I'm fine with that.
     

    Tomahawkman

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    My LE Agency recently started allowing optics on our duty handguns. We had roughly 50% of the department purchase an optic for their guns. RMR06, SRO, 407/507, 509T make up the current, in use optics. Once everyone was taught how to use these optics properly we had shooters who had never shot a perfect score in their career do so with an optic equipped handgun. As the firearms instructor I have been pushing for this change for a while based on my own personal use of optics on my personally owned guns.

    Having scored all of the targets and watched everyone shoot. I can say that those with pistol mounted optics have shown a very identifiable increase in performance from iron sights. Can you shoot just as good with irons? Yes. However the amount of work you have to put in to do it is significantly higher. My departments top shooter uses an optic, our 2nd shooter uses irons only.

    As far as weight goes... these optics are very light and nobody has complained about the increase of a couple ounces.

    They do consume batteries but so do rifle optics and flashlights and those have been accepted in the shooting world for a long time. Just like with anything else, buy a quality optic and the battery life is plenty acceptable. The good thing here is that we are all adults and should be able to understand the idea of preventative battery maintenance. You wouldn't only get an oil change or put gas in your car when it dies roadside.

    Electronic failure or visual blockages are fairly easily addressed by use of back up irons. Front glass blockages that do not block the emitter can be rectified. Emitter blockages are more of an issue but at close distances "good shooters point instinctively within typical self defense range" anyway.

    The down sides of handgun optics and the reality of those downsides manifesting themselves in real world environments are far out weighed by advantages given to the shooter.

    I've not noticed any issue returning to an iron sight gun after shooting dots for extended period of time, its kind of like riding a bike.


    In conclusion....


    On a flat range environment where punching holes in paper is the goal. I have seen a quantifiable performance gain that has transferred over to performance gain in more dynamic shooting as well.

    Red dots are not a fad, they are the future of handgun shooting. They have been around long enough now that the question of them being a fad or not is irrelevant. The data is out there, they work. They require additional training, but they work.



    As far as lasers go... consult Bill Blowers on the topic of shooting handguns with lasers on them. They have their place and in that place, they are highly effective.
     
    Last edited:

    Skip

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    My LE Agency recently started allowing optics on our duty handguns. We had roughly 50% of the department purchase an optic for their guns. RMR06, SRO, 407/507, 509T make up the current, in use optics. Once everyone was taught how to use these optics properly we had shooters who had never shot a perfect score in their career do so with an optic equipped handgun. As the firearms instructor I have been pushing for this change for a while based on my own personal use of optics on my personally owned guns.

    Having scored all of the targets and watched everyone shoot. I can say that those with pistol mounted optics have shown a very identifiable increase in performance from iron sights. Can you shoot just as good with irons? Yes. However the amount of work you have to put in to do it is significantly higher. My departments top shooter uses an optic, our 2nd shooter uses irons only.

    As far as weight goes... these optics are very light and nobody has complained about the increase of a couple ounces.

    They do consume batteries but so do rifle optics and flashlights and those have been accepted in the shooting world for a long time. Just like with anything else, buy a quality optic and the battery life is plenty acceptable. The good thing here is that we are all adults and should be able to understand the idea of preventative battery maintenance. You wouldn't only get an oil change or put gas in your car when it dies roadside.

    Electronic failure or visual blockages are fairly easily addressed by use of back up irons. Front glass blockages that block the emitter can be rectified. Emitter blockages are more of an issue but at close distances "good shooters point instinctively within typical self defense range" anyway.

    The down sides of handgun optics and the reality of those downsides manifesting themselves in real world environments are far out weighed by advantages given to the shooter.

    I've not noticed any issue returning to an iron sight gun after shooting dots for extended period of time, its kind of like riding a bike.


    In conclusion....


    On a flat range environment where punching holes in paper is the goal. I have seen a quantifiable performance gain that has transferred over to performance gain in more dynamic shooting as well.

    Red dots are not a fad, they are the future of handgun shooting. They have been around long enough now that the question of them being a fad or not is irrelevant. The data is out there, they work. They require additional training, but they work.



    As far as lasers go... consult Bill Blowers on the topic of shooting handguns with lasers on them. They have their place and in that place, they are highly effective.
    Shot Expert with the rifle back in the Corps. Iron sights were all we had…and gas tubes for electronics were still being used.
    The Marines had to change qualification levels….UP when they started using optics on rifles. I would say they saw the same thing you did…
     

    Tomahawkman

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    Shot Expert with the rifle back in the Corps. Iron sights were all we had…and gas tubes for electronics were still being used.
    The Marines had to change qualification levels….UP when they started using optics on rifles. I would say they saw the same thing you did…
    Agreed. In the LE space I see a standards increase coming as the adoption of pistol optics becomes more prevalent.
     

    cedartop

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    My LE Agency recently started allowing optics on our duty handguns. We had roughly 50% of the department purchase an optic for their guns. RMR06, SRO, 407/507, 509T make up the current, in use optics. Once everyone was taught how to use these optics properly we had shooters who had never shot a perfect score in their career do so with an optic equipped handgun. As the firearms instructor I have been pushing for this change for a while based on my own personal use of optics on my personally owned guns.

    Having scored all of the targets and watched everyone shoot. I can say that those with pistol mounted optics have shown a very identifiable increase in performance from iron sights. Can you shoot just as good with irons? Yes. However the amount of work you have to put in to do it is significantly higher. My departments top shooter uses an optic, our 2nd shooter uses irons only.

    As far as weight goes... these optics are very light and nobody has complained about the increase of a couple ounces.

    They do consume batteries but so do rifle optics and flashlights and those have been accepted in the shooting world for a long time. Just like with anything else, buy a quality optic and the battery life is plenty acceptable. The good thing here is that we are all adults and should be able to understand the idea of preventative battery maintenance. You wouldn't only get an oil change or put gas in your car when it dies roadside.

    Electronic failure or visual blockages are fairly easily addressed by use of back up irons. Front glass blockages that do not block the emitter can be rectified. Emitter blockages are more of an issue but at close distances "good shooters point instinctively within typical self defense range" anyway.

    The down sides of handgun optics and the reality of those downsides manifesting themselves in real world environments are far out weighed by advantages given to the shooter.

    I've not noticed any issue returning to an iron sight gun after shooting dots for extended period of time, its kind of like riding a bike.


    In conclusion....


    On a flat range environment where punching holes in paper is the goal. I have seen a quantifiable performance gain that has transferred over to performance gain in more dynamic shooting as well.

    Red dots are not a fad, they are the future of handgun shooting. They have been around long enough now that the question of them being a fad or not is irrelevant. The data is out there, they work. They require additional training, but they work.



    As far as lasers go... consult Bill Blowers on the topic of shooting handguns with lasers on them. They have their place and in that place, they are highly effective.
    Our SD did something similar last year with a similar participation rate. Originally their approved optics list was pretty small, but that may have changed. I have not heard how it is working out for them.

    Out of curiosity how long was the transition training? Was it handled in house? Is this with an ILEA qual course or something with a little less generous par times?

    Thanks.
     

    Tomahawkman

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    Our SD did something similar last year with a similar participation rate. Originally their approved optics list was pretty small, but that may have changed. I have not heard how it is working out for them.

    Out of curiosity how long was the transition training? Was it handled in house? Is this with an ILEA qual course or something with a little less generous par times?

    Thanks.
    8 hour class for transition. It was handled privately by a LEO owned training company. We are currently shooting the old ILEA course on B27s no time limits on stages at this time. 48 round course 3,7,15,25 yards.
     

    bw210

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    My three main EDC's in rotation all have RDS with co-witness irons with bright front sights. One of the problems with getting older is seeing that front sight clearly.

    RDS solves this problem. If a failure occurs you still have irons for backup.

    Embrace it or not... they are here to stay as well as evolve and most likely replace iron sights.
     

    Amishman44

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    I will post that everyone is better off buying practice ammo for their edc instead of a red dot.
    - good shooters point instinctively within typical self-defense range
    - red dots are electronic, consume batteries, and are an additional failure point
    - red dots add weight
    - unless all your pistols have red dots, you have inconsistent sight pictures across arms
    - I personally find them unnatural vs irons, admittedly this is likely a training issue
    - all of these points also apply to lasers
    In conclusion i believe red dots are a fad. They look cool and may be a status symbol.
    Are the above ideas incorrect or do the pros of red dots outweigh these cons?
    Pros: Accurate shots in the dark
    I'm old school...Red Dots are 'cute' but not necessary for accuracy for a prepared and trained individual, for home or personal defense, or for EDC. Red Dots require one to always be 'sight-focused' when shooting and in many self-defense situations, sight focused shooting is often too slow of a response. I also agree that it's one more thing that can go bad, in a time of critical need, and result in a 'non-win' in a self-defense situation.

    Red Dots are great for sighted or target shooting, but not necessarily for close quarters battle home or personal defense response.

    When one considers a true 'self-defense' shooting situation, there are three (3) levels (distances) of shooting...or, otherwise, known as visual sight picture.

    Unsighted Fire - self-defense distance of 3-9' - individuals sight picture is typically both eyes open and focused on the aggressor/attacker, not on the gun's sight meaning that you are using a point-n-shoot, or immediate defensive, response...the defender does not use the sights to fire the weapon when in a situation where speed in defense supercedes pin-point accuracy.

    Front Sight Fire - when self-defense distances grow to 10-15' front sight focus is key to accurate hits. Which is why I prefer a Tritium (low/no light shooting) front sight with an Orange (day shooting) outer ring for increased visibility for quicker front sight acquisition, even when the front sight is still being used in a periphery manner, it's much easier to acquire in the periphery and maintain a degree of accuracy.

    Sighted Fire - when distances grow beyond 15', where slowing down and taking an aimed precision or 'pin-point' shot, then being able to utilize sights (including Red Dot) accurately, matters.

    It's amazing how many who have never been in a self-defense shooting situation, where the adrenaline is flowing, the fight-or-flight mechanism kicks in, fine-motor control is lost and gross motor movement is the only thing that remains (meaning, there's no 'precision' or 'pin-point' shooting going on) and think they know in advance what they will do when no one really knows until that first shot has been fired. Some duck-n-run, other freeze, and a very few respond defensively, quickly. Kudos to the few...

    Just my $0.02 worth...but I train that way and change it up and utilize a different number of shots at each distance as a variable. Nothing stated is intended to offend, rather, intended to be realistic about it, especially the reality of losing fine-motor control in a fight-or-flight, self-defense situation.
     
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    ditcherman

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    Red Dots require one to always be 'sight-focused'
    I and many others would strongly disagree about this. Quite the opposite.
    Front Sight Fire - when self-defense distances grow to 10-15' front sight focus is key to accurate hits. Which is why I prefer a Tritium (low/no light shooting) front sight with an Orange (day shooting) outer ring for increased visibility for quicker front sight acquisition, even when the front sight is still being used in a periphery manner, it's much easier to acquire in the periphery and maintain a degree of accuracy.

    Sighted Fire - when distances grow beyond 15', where slowing down and taking an aimed precision or 'pin-point' shot, then being able to utilize sights (including Red Dot) accurately, matters.
    And, yet, here we are, needing sighted fire…
    It's amazing how many who have never been in a self-defense shooting situation, where the adrenaline is flowing, the fight-or-flight mechanism kicks in, fine-motor control is lost and gross motor movement is the only thing that remains (meaning, there's no 'precision' or 'pin-point' shooting going on) and think they know in advance what they will do when no one really knows until that first shot has been fired. Some duck-n-run, other freeze, and a very few respond defensively, quickly. Kudos to the few...

    Just my $0.02 worth...but I train that way and change it up and utilize a different number of shots at each distance as a variable. Nothing stated is intended to offend, rather, intended to be realistic about it, especially the reality of losing fine-motor control in a fight-or-flight, self-defense situation.
    I’ve not been in a self defense scenario to test that adrenaline dump, but know enough about myself that it could be ugly. I too try to train with that in mind, also with a lot of movement.
    Also, no offense meant, I think we see the reality differently.
     

    cedartop

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    I'm old school...Red Dots are 'cute' but not necessary for accuracy for a prepared and trained individual, for home or personal defense, or for EDC. Red Dots require one to always be 'sight-focused' when shooting and in many self-defense situations, sight focused shooting is often too slow of a response. I also agree that it's one more thing that can go bad, in a time of critical need, and result in a 'non-win' in a self-defense situation.

    Red Dots are great for sighted or target shooting, but not necessarily for close quarters battle home or personal defense response.

    When one considers a true 'self-defense' shooting situation, there are three (3) levels (distances) of shooting...or, otherwise, known as visual sight picture.

    Unsighted Fire - self-defense distance of 3-9' - individuals sight picture is typically both eyes open and focused on the aggressor/attacker, not on the gun's sight meaning that you are using a point-n-shoot, or immediate defensive, response...the defender does not use the sights to fire the weapon when in a situation where speed in defense supercedes pin-point accuracy.

    Front Sight Fire - when self-defense distances grow to 10-15' front sight focus is key to accurate hits. Which is why I prefer a Tritium (low/no light shooting) front sight with an Orange (day shooting) outer ring for increased visibility for quicker front sight acquisition, even when the front sight is still being used in a periphery manner, it's much easier to acquire in the periphery and maintain a degree of accuracy.

    Sighted Fire - when distances grow beyond 15', where slowing down and taking an aimed precision or 'pin-point' shot, then being able to utilize sights (including Red Dot) accurately, matters.

    It's amazing how many who have never been in a self-defense shooting situation, where the adrenaline is flowing, the fight-or-flight mechanism kicks in, fine-motor control is lost and gross motor movement is the only thing that remains (meaning, there's no 'precision' or 'pin-point' shooting going on) and think they know in advance what they will do when no one really knows until that first shot has been fired. Some duck-n-run, other freeze, and a very few respond defensively, quickly. Kudos to the few...

    Just my $0.02 worth...but I train that way and change it up and utilize a different number of shots at each distance as a variable. Nothing stated is intended to offend, rather, intended to be realistic about it, especially the reality of losing fine-motor control in a fight-or-flight, self-defense situation.
    Man, I don't know where you got all that from, but it is all kinds of screwed up.
     

    Skip

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    Yeah, the 3, 3, 3 of a self defense shooting occur nowhere in real shooting data, nowhere. Police shootings, some, but not so much since Miami and the FBI.
    That being said, going by “statistics” to prepare for CCW is dangerous. Been around for 67 years and do you know what I’ve found out in that time? The situations I find myself in are often WAAAAAAY outside any perceived “statistics".
     

    Chewie

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    Ok, read through the whole thread and what have I determined? Everyone has their opinion and can find the facts to support that opinion.

    Lot's of good discussion and ideas in this thread.

    My opinion is, "what ever works best for you".

    My other take aways are, "training is key" and "anyone can find fault with anything"

    Which takes me back to my original opinion, everyone is different!
     

    NHT3

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    I am far from the resident expert here but common sense tells me that even the highly trained will most likely focus on the threat in a life and death situation. Sighting systems designed to be used with a target focus are more intuitive and that is what a red dot offers. Bill Wilson berating someone for spending a few extra $$$$ for an item that could very well save a few tenths of a second demonstrates how out of touch he is. Unlike Bill most don't have an unlimited budget and time to train.. Having a target focus IS an advantage for most people, especially those with a limited training budget. Anyone that doesn't believe that is free to spend their extra $$$ on ammo.. Go with what works for you is the best advice I can give someone YMMV.
     
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