Red dots on handguns are for play (change my mind)

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  • gregkl

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    Practice A LOT is the operative phrase in your statement.. When I was a kid I would shoot flies off the shed in our back yard with a BB gun. Never looked at the paltry sights it had but I wore the gun out shooting it. I wouldn't want to guess how many BBs went down that barrel.. Thanks for reminding me of more simple and enjoyable times. :thumbsup:
    That was why I included that statement. In reality archers just coined the term "instinctive" hearkening back to the early ages when man hunted with a bow. They claim that man has been using a bow for so long that it is "instinctive".

    I do believe, if I remember my biology/physiology classes humans really have no instincts. That is saved for the animal kingdom. What humans do is learned behavior.
     

    gregkl

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    I'm up for it if you are paying for the ammo.
    Well, I'm not saying I will have success in the first range session, lol. I know myself better than that.

    But I'm thinking I will run it at 5 yards and see if I hit a par time of 3 seconds, all alphas. Then back up to 10 yards and do it again. Then once I achieve that, I'll push the speed more.

    That is if I ever achieve those scores.

    It really has me thinking this could be a good way to work on what I know are some of my weak points: inconsistent grip, pushing for speed without regards to accuracy. Not doing enough reps of a singular exercise, i.e. doing too many varied drills.

    I'm glad now that I made the posts I did in this thread! Improvements coming my way!
     

    Drail

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    I am 70 years old and I will never have any faith in any sight that relies upon BATTERIES to work. Batteries aren't as great as they want you to believe . Just keep buying them.
     

    Whip_McCord

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    I will be 67 this year. My eyes were never great. I started wearing glasses for nearsightedness around age 11. Over 35 years ago my eyesight was measured at 20/2000, without glasses. Recently I asked the eye Dr what it is now and they said they don't measure that high. Off the chart. I wanted to preface my remarks with this info because so many people say their eyesight is not what it once was as an excuse. Well, mine never was.

    Unlike many older shooters that are either new to red dot sights or do not like them; I have been using them since 1995 on certain handguns. I started using them in bullseye matches (local thru Camp Perry) and a local PPC league. I have them on some handguns but not on all. I do not think it's a good idea to put a red sot on all your guns. I still practice with iron sights. That's the only way to stay proficient with them. In the PPC league, I alternate between irons and a dot to keep in practice with each. I also use both in steel challenge matches.

    A few weeks ago in the PPC league (which I run now at Blythe's), we did a Bill Drill. Since we run 6 shooters on the line at once, fastest time is tough to do and takes too long, so I set up par times. Below is the COF. When we did this drill last, I brought a S&W M&P 9mm. This is not a gun I shoot often. I usually shoot a revolver when I shoot CF in the league. I have one slide with iron sights and another with a red dot. I thought it would be good to compare their scores to see which I could shoot beter in those times. Not only were my iron sight scores better, but I went over time often with the red dot. I did not go over time with iron sights. I have no doubt that at farther distances I would do better with the dot but at what is considered normal self defence distances, I see the dot as being slower.

    Granted these are my results and YMMV, but I think the red dot will slow you down at close distances. If you want to prove to yourself that I'm right or wrong, try your own test like I did. Use the same frame if you can so there are fewer variables. Either way, the drill shoulld be fun and insightful.

    B-29 target, facing backward (from low ready)
    Distance Par Time
    6 shots 3 yards 4 seconds
    6 shots 3 yards 3 seconds
    6 shots 3 yards 2 seconds
    6 shots 5 yards 4 seconds
    6 shots 5 yards 3 seconds
    6 shots 7 yards 4 seconds
    6 shots 7 yards 3 seconds
    42 rounds total
     

    1nderbeard

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    A close relative is the trainer for Metro Nashville police. He is firmly against you in the red dot debate.
    Training matters, but once you have trained with one in SD scenarios, he is a strong believer in faster target acquisition in just about every scenario.
     

    Whip_McCord

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    A close relative is the trainer for Metro Nashville police. He is firmly against you in the red dot debate.
    Training matters, but once you have trained with one in SD scenarios, he is a strong believer in faster target acquisition in just about every scenario.
    At the risk of being misunderstood, most police do not shoot very well. Many only shoot when they need to qualify, once a year. Don't get me wrong, I know there are exceptions and there are many officers that are top competitors. I've shot with both types. The normal LEO does not shoot very well and I can see where a red dot can improve their scores quite a bit. Although, I can see where using a red dot on the job for many of them could cause problems if they do not shoot/practice often.
     

    cedartop

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    I will be 67 this year. My eyes were never great. I started wearing glasses for nearsightedness around age 11. Over 35 years ago my eyesight was measured at 20/2000, without glasses. Recently I asked the eye Dr what it is now and they said they don't measure that high. Off the chart. I wanted to preface my remarks with this info because so many people say their eyesight is not what it once was as an excuse. Well, mine never was.

    Unlike many older shooters that are either new to red dot sights or do not like them; I have been using them since 1995 on certain handguns. I started using them in bullseye matches (local thru Camp Perry) and a local PPC league. I have them on some handguns but not on all. I do not think it's a good idea to put a red sot on all your guns. I still practice with iron sights. That's the only way to stay proficient with them. In the PPC league, I alternate between irons and a dot to keep in practice with each. I also use both in steel challenge matches.

    A few weeks ago in the PPC league (which I run now at Blythe's), we did a Bill Drill. Since we run 6 shooters on the line at once, fastest time is tough to do and takes too long, so I set up par times. Below is the COF. When we did this drill last, I brought a S&W M&P 9mm. This is not a gun I shoot often. I usually shoot a revolver when I shoot CF in the league. I have one slide with iron sights and another with a red dot. I thought it would be good to compare their scores to see which I could shoot beter in those times. Not only were my iron sight scores better, but I went over time often with the red dot. I did not go over time with iron sights. I have no doubt that at farther distances I would do better with the dot but at what is considered normal self defence distances, I see the dot as being slower.

    Granted these are my results and YMMV, but I think the red dot will slow you down at close distances. If you want to prove to yourself that I'm right or wrong, try your own test like I did. Use the same frame if you can so there are fewer variables. Either way, the drill shoulld be fun and insightful.

    B-29 target, facing backward (from low ready)
    Distance Par Time
    6 shots 3 yards 4 seconds
    6 shots 3 yards 3 seconds
    6 shots 3 yards 2 seconds
    6 shots 5 yards 4 seconds
    6 shots 5 yards 3 seconds
    6 shots 7 yards 4 seconds
    6 shots 7 yards 3 seconds
    42 rounds total
    It is very common for people to be slower with a red dot at closer distances. There are a few reasons for this and it can be overcome, but it is one of the reasons I don't necessarily recommend them as something casual shooters should put on their self defense gun.
     

    ECS686

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    At the risk of being misunderstood, most police do not shoot very well. Many only shoot when they need to qualify, once a year. Don't get me wrong, I know there are exceptions and there are many officers that are top competitors. I've shot with both types. The normal LEO does not shoot very well and I can see where a red dot can improve their scores quite a bit. Although, I can see where using a red dot on the job for many of them could cause problems if they do not shoot/practice often.
    I am a retired LE trainer (I have even taught classes at FLETC)

    My observation and experience with LE Firearms. There is a 10% 80% 10% breakdown.

    Top 10% are the top shooters and train on their own dime and time.

    80% meet minimum agency standards and most by only a few points. Those are the ones that are “good enough til next year”

    Then the bottom 10% are what agencies use to dumb courses down. Why the Federal Air Marshals BOP Marshals etc they all have made their courses easier.

    As far as RDS and LE it will breakdown about the same other than some will feel a bit more “cool”
     

    Whip_McCord

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    It is very common for people to be slower with a red dot at closer distances. There are a few reasons for this and it can be overcome, but it is one of the reasons I don't necessarily recommend them as something casual shooters should put on their self defense gun.
    It can be overcome, to a point. When I'm shooting 6 shots in 2 seconds, I don't have time to look at the iron sights, let alone the red dot. There is no time to look at the dot when firing at those speeds. At least I cannot do that.
     

    cedartop

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    It can be overcome, to a point. When I'm shooting 6 shots in 2 seconds, I don't have time to look at the iron sights, let alone the red dot. There is no time to look at the dot when firing at those speeds. At least I cannot do that.
    You aren't supposed to be looking at the dot, that is the point of the dot. You should be looking at the target and noticing the dot
     

    DadSmith

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    No. Doesn't mean you 'NEED' it.

    But it doesn't hurt to look if techniques or equipment can improve things for you.
    Otherwise, we'd still be using sticks and stones.
    Inside 10-15 yards at this point without training with a rds I'm faster, and self-defense accurate.

    When I had an rds on my P10F outside 20yds I was faster, and more accurate with an rds.

    I plan to remedy that problem this summer. I bought a dagger to practice with an rds once I get it figured out, and I'm as fast with it as I am with iron sights under 20yds. I'm going to be putting an rds back on my P10F.

    Hunting wise nothing beats a rds on a 44mag revolver. I'm much more accurate at longer range with the rds than without, and I can hunt the deep woods longer because I can still see a deer, but often the iron sights are not visible in the last minutes of the hunt. An rds fixes that problem for my aging eyes.
     

    Whip_McCord

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    You aren't supposed to be looking at the dot, that is the point of the dot. You should be looking at the target and noticing the dot
    I know you don't focus on the dot. You need to see the dot to use it. There is no time when shooting 6 shots in 2 seconds. That's what I was saying. You are talking semantics.
     

    cedartop

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    I know you don't focus on the dot. You need to see the dot to use it. There is no time when shooting 6 shots in 2 seconds. That's what I was saying. You are talking semantics.
    Sorry, wasnt trying to mansplain or insult. I would disagree it is semantics. Take my Bill drill for example. If I shoot a 7 yard 2.25 second Bill drill from the holster, that is a 1.25 DTFH and .20 splits. I am seeing the dot that whole time. It may only be a streak of red going up and down, but it is there. This is important. If I was shooting reactively (vs. predictively) those splits would run more like a .3 or .35. By reactively I mean waiting for the dot to drop and settle and then press the trigger. You are right that I would then be shooting slow. There is a time and place for both. That is really what Daniel Horner is talking about towards the end of that video upthread.
     
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