Red Dots on Carry Guns

[cedartop]

Yep basic marksmanship skills found in bullseye (Precision Pistol) carry over to other disciplines to a large degree, but one must still learn other skills, i.e. different trigger, drawing and firing or firing from a ready pistol position, getting shots off quick, etc. Over the past several years the emphasis on marksmanship fundamentals has been overlooked by many and shown actual distain by others.

Yep basic marksmanship skills found in bullseye (Precision Pistol) carry over to other disciplines to a large degree, but one must still learn other skills, i.e. different trigger, drawing and firing or firing from a ready pistol position, getting shots off quick, etc. Over the past several years the emphasis on marksmanship fundamentals has been overlooked by many and shown actual distain by others.

That must be a matter of perspective. From when I got back into the training game coming up on 20 years ago now, I have seen FAR more accuracy oriented emphasis in the last 5 years. I think a lot of that has to do with all of the retired military SMU guys out there teaching. Two of the bigger names in the training world right now, Chuck Pressburg (No Fail Shot) and Bill Blowers both have high accuracy and consistency demands in their classes. Steve Fisher as well. Even Jedlinski has a 25 yard component to his Black Belt Standards. Tom Givens routinely publishes drills that use B8 targets. Veteran law officers like Bolke and Dobbs stress accuracy and judgement and not shooting faster than your capabilities. Old timers like Legend Larry Mudgett at Marksmanship Matters are making a big comeback in the training world. Sorry, I just don't see it. I would also submit that the switch to MRDS is driving this accuracy push even farther.

 

[88E30M50]

As someone who has done low light training both with live fire and force on force I can tell you that an auto adjust dot is not always to your benefit. Especially if you are in a dark area looking out to a light area or using a weapon mounted light.

That was the issue I had with the 507c. It set the brightness based on my location, not on where I was aiming. When looking from dark to light, the dot would wash out. But, the simple fix was to learn where the brightness button was very well and get used to adjusting it on the fly

 

[88E30M50]

Agreed, I constantly try to get the message across that there is a long vast of areas to obtain a skill set along with a lot of hard work to achieve before one needs trick triggers and accessories. Unfortunately, in this day and age of shortcuts, many give up putting in the work and try to outfit their way to Marksmanship. Sad.

Did someone suggest not learning on irons and just jumping straight to dots as the best way for new shooters? The advocates of red dots I see posting here were respected shooters before they embraced dots. Nobody suggested that irons be eliminated, just that for them, dots make more sense.

 

[Trapper Jim]

That must be a matter of perspective. From when I got back into the training game coming up on 20 years ago now, I have seen FAR more accuracy oriented emphasis in the last 5 years. I think a lot of that has to do with all of the retired military SMU guys out there teaching. Two of the bigger names in the training world right now, Chuck Pressburg (No Fail Shot) and Bill Blowers both have high accuracy and consistency demands in their classes. Steve Fisher as well. Even Jedlinski has a 25 yard component to his Black Belt Standards. Tom Givens routinely publishes drills that use B8 targets. Veteran law officers like Bolke and Dobbs stress accuracy and judgement and not shooting faster than your capabilities. Old timers like Legend Larry Mudgett at Marksmanship Matters are making a big comeback in the training world. Sorry, I just don't see it. I would also submit that the switch to MRDS is driving this accuracy push even

The problem is not with good trainers, it is with

That must be a matter of perspective. From when I got back into the training game coming up on 20 years ago now, I have seen FAR more accuracy oriented emphasis in the last 5 years. I think a lot of that has to do with all of the retired military SMU guys out there teaching. Two of the bigger names in the training world right now, Chuck Pressburg (No Fail Shot) and Bill Blowers both have high accuracy and consistency demands in their classes. Steve Fisher as well. Even Jedlinski has a 25 yard component to his Black Belt Standards. Tom Givens routinely publishes drills that use B8 targets. Veteran law officers like Bolke and Dobbs stress accuracy and judgement and not shooting faster than your capabilities. Old timers like Legend Larry Mudgett at Marksmanship Matters are making a big comeback in the training world. Sorry, I just don't see it. I would also submit that the switch to MRDS is driving this accuracy push even farther.

Outside of the get rich quick wham bam trainers, most outfits, as you noted, cover follow through and accurate shooting. However,
It has never been about the trainers doctrine but more about the gun owners discipline to go after it. Can’t read a book and loose weight

 

[tbhausen]

One other thing to point out is that if you are cross dominant, red dots feel more natural than irons.

What if you’re cross-dominant because you shoot right-handed but have good vision only in your left eye? Could you red dot pistol shooters try closing one eye and let me know if it’s still worth pursuing?

 

[ditcherman]

What if you’re cross-dominant because you shoot right-handed but have good vision only in your left eye? Could you red dot pistol shooters try closing one eye and let me know if it’s still worth pursuing?

I think so.
Under extreme pressure, or if I haven’t practiced in a while, or the dot is floating for whatever reason, I will catch myself shooting one eye closed. Not sure if it’s the same as what you’re asking…

 

[ditcherman]

Definitely takes a lot of practice to learn to use a red dot. However, I've found out to 7yards I can draw and hit the target with no problem looking through the glass on my red dot sight. I turned it off to see how I would do if it lost power.

If you really want your mind blown, put tape on the front of the optic, so you can see the dot but not through it.
Then put tape on the backside too. It will help show you just how much of your unconscious brain is being used to get on target.
This assumes you’re shooting both eyes open.
You should be amazed at how on target your shots are.

 

[cbhausen]

What if you’re cross-dominant because you shoot right-handed but have good vision only in your left eye? Could you red dot pistol shooters try closing one eye and let me know if it’s still worth pursuing?

I think so.

I posed the same question in its own thread and the answer was almost unanimous: yes.

Red Dot Sights (Handgun or Rifle) ONE EYE ONLY

Hypothetical question: If you had to use only one eye would you prefer iron sights or a red dot sight for personal defense weapons and why? In other words, are the pros and cons of RDS vs. irons changed enough using one eye vs. two eyes to change your preference? Thanks in advance for taking...

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[ditcherman]

I posed the same question in its own thread and the answer was almost unanimous: yes.

Red Dot Sights (Handgun or Rifle) ONE EYE ONLY

Hypothetical question: If you had to use only one eye would you prefer iron sights or a red dot sight for personal defense weapons and why? In other words, are the pros and cons of RDS vs. irons changed enough using one eye vs. two eyes to change your preference? Thanks in advance for taking...

www.indianagunowners.com

Have you tried one yet? Granted the learning curve is high, and trying one doesn’t immediately translate into works/doesn’t work.

 

[cbhausen]

Have you tried one yet? Granted the learning curve is high, and trying one doesn’t immediately translate into works/doesn’t work.

Yes, I have a G19.5 MOS with a 3 MOA Trijicon RMR Type 2 on a C&H plate. Not as hard to find the dot most of the time as I thought it would be. I have a lot of work to do though. I can beat a two second par time most draw attempts and hit a 10 inch plate from 7 yards pretty consistently but I want to be faster. I also need to get to work on the dry fire practice. A lot.

 

[ditcherman]

Yes, I have a G19.5 MOS with a 3 MOA Trijicon RMR Type 2 on a C&H plate. Not as hard to find the dot most of the time as I thought it would be. I have a lot of work to do though. I can beat a two second par time most draw attempts and hit a 10 inch plate from 7 yards pretty consistently but I want to be faster. I also need to get to work on the dry fire practice. A lot.

That’s sounds like an awesome setup, and good times too.
I didn’t play with a timer much before I had a dot (romeo1pro on p320) so I don’t know what my time was but definitely faster now, and faster with a dot.
I neglect dry fire sorely as well.

 

[BE Mike]

That must be a matter of perspective. From when I got back into the training game coming up on 20 years ago now, I have seen FAR more accuracy oriented emphasis in the last 5 years. I think a lot of that has to do with all of the retired military SMU guys out there teaching. Two of the bigger names in the training world right now, Chuck Pressburg (No Fail Shot) and Bill Blowers both have high accuracy and consistency demands in their classes. Steve Fisher as well. Even Jedlinski has a 25 yard component to his Black Belt Standards. Tom Givens routinely publishes drills that use B8 targets. Veteran law officers like Bolke and Dobbs stress accuracy and judgement and not shooting faster than your capabilities. Old timers like Legend Larry Mudgett at Marksmanship Matters are making a big comeback in the training world. Sorry, I just don't see it. I would also submit that the switch to MRDS is driving this accuracy push even farther.

My observations are from the law enforcement community and general gun owning public, not elite schools. I hope you are right in your thinking that people are actually honing their handgun skills to engage targets accurately at greater distances than are displayed regularly on many forums.

 

[cedartop]

My observations are from the law enforcement community and general gun owning public, not elite schools. I hope you are right in your thinking that people are actually honing their handgun skills to engage targets accurately at greater distances than are displayed regularly on many forums.

Well Trapper Jim mentioned something similar and I don't see that that particular issue has much to do with red dots either way. Your average LEO and your average regular person gun carrier have something in common. They both suck at shooting. There are police who shoot well and there are regular people who shoot well but the majority don't. Unfortunately there is not a lot we can do about that and when I speak it is mostly to enthusiasts whether they be LE or not.

 

[gregkl]

What if you’re cross-dominant because you shoot right-handed but have good vision only in your left eye? Could you red dot pistol shooters try closing one eye and let me know if it’s still worth pursuing?

Tb, I'm cross dominant(right handed). I shoot both eyes open with the dot. I believe my left eye being dominant is the one that is actually seeing the dot. I'll test that out tomorrow at the range.

If your left eye is the healthier one, it should work out better for you. I think it would be akin to putting cellophane tape over the right lens of your shooting glasses if your vision is bad in the right eye.

I used to tape the left lens when I shot Trap to force my right eye to be dominant which is necessary in shotgun sports if you are right handed.

 

[DadSmith]

My observations are from the law enforcement community and general gun owning public, not elite schools. I hope you are right in your thinking that people are actually honing their handgun skills to engage targets accurately at greater distances than are displayed regularly on many forums.

Reason I'm learning to use a red dot is for longer distances and the accuracy it gives over iron sights.
I can still hit a 8" round ar500 target at 50 yards with iron sights, but if in a mass shootings situation and the bad guys are over 20 yards I want the most accuracy I can get.
Chances of me being in that situation isn't very high Statistically yet I want to be ready. My eyes are getting old now days can't see as good as I use to.
I need all the advantages I need to make a accurate shot. Also the red dot speeds up target acquisition at longer ranges imo.

I'm definitely faster with iron sights 15yards and under. That's where I need to train the most with my red dot.

 

[jwamplerusa]

What if you’re cross-dominant because you shoot right-handed but have good vision only in your left eye? Could you red dot pistol shooters try closing one eye and let me know if it’s still worth pursuing?

Yes, I think so. By most estimates I'm slightly left eye dominant. The left eye has cornea scaring and significant astigmatism.

I am also strongly right handed.

I normally shoot right handed, both eyes open. Occasionally with a new gun or dot I'll have trouble losing the sight image when my left eye kind of takes over. Closing or nearly closing my left eye is a definite help in aquiring the dot or sights in those situations.

 

[MCgrease08]

Did someone suggest not learning on irons and just jumping straight to dots as the best way for new shooters? The advocates of red dots I see posting here were respected shooters before they embraced dots. Nobody suggested that irons be eliminated, just that for them, dots make more sense.

I would not hesitate for one minute to suggest a brand new shooter start with a red dot first. I see no reason not to start with what you plan to use as the primary sighting system and build that muscle memory first. There's much less to unlearn that way.

Of course, they should also understand how to use iron sights in case they're needed, but I don't think it's necessary to learn them first.

I used to think that way with rifles and red dots. I took a few carbine classes with open sights only, figuring I needed to get good with irons first and then move to a red dot or LPVO. Both times I was the only guy running irons only and the other students were much faster and more accurate. Once I switched to a red dot I was kicking myself for not doing it sooner.

 

[DadSmith]

If you really want your mind blown, put tape on the front of the optic, so you can see the dot but not through it.
Then put tape on the backside too. It will help show you just how much of your unconscious brain is being used to get on target.
This assumes you’re shooting both eyes open.
You should be amazed at how on target your shots are.

I want to try it with my eyes shut
Draw and fire and see how I do. BBI came up with that idea. Start at 3yds and work my away back from there a few yards at a time until I start missing. I like challenges and that should be a fun one.

 

[Gunmetalgray]

I want to try it with my eyes shut
Draw and fire and see how I do. BBI came up with that idea. Start at 3yds and work my away back from there a few yards at a time until I start missing. I like challenges and that should be a fun one.

I like it. But...

 

[Trapper Jim]

I like it. But...

I cover that in my training modules under presentation. We drill out to 5 yards to evaluate shooters presentation skill set. If one can’t do it, they need work.

The StreetWise Drill includes a bill cap with different degrees of eye challenges. Along with being fun the reveal is also valued.