Red Dots on Carry Guns

[Levergun1]

Definitely takes a lot of practice to learn to use a red dot. However, I've found out to 7yards I can draw and hit the target with no problem looking through the glass on my red dot sight. I turned it off to see how I would do if it lost power.

At seven yards, I can draw and hit a silhouette target with no sights.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Definitely takes a lot of practice to learn to use a red dot. However, I've found out to 7yards I can draw and hit the target with no problem looking through the glass on my red dot sight. I turned it off to see how I would do if it lost power.

7 yards is almost twice the norm for civil gun fights. Ask Mr Rittenhouse. get a timer and compare the 3x3x3 with iron vs dots. If you do not earn a significant improvement in score with the dot, then weigh the law of diminished returns to determine if it is worth the baggage and electronic fails to carry it. The shooting sports and range practice often are using target yardages way beyond true defensive distances. The longer the shot the more advantage a dot or scope gives you. So there’s that.

 

[cedartop]

So I would ask anybody who has chosen to use a red dot on your carry gun, go to a class from a reputable instructor. If you can't/don't want to do that, please find a way to shoot a couple of carry gun/IDPA/USPSA matches. I promise if you have went from iron sights to a red dot with nothing more than some casual self supervised range time, you are going to find out some things about the way you interface with the sighting system under stress and unusual presentations. If all of those are out of the question, I beseech you, go to the range with a timer and a good drill that includes various presentation methods and some SHO/WHO shooting. I will even give you some great examples.

5 Yard Round Up

Short Combat Accuracy Test (SCAT)

And one of my favorites if you want to compare one gun to another or red dot to irons

Rangemaster Bullseye Drill (modified)

By modified I mean taking the last stage of 5 shots in 5 seconds at 5 yards and doing it dominant hand only. That drill is how I currently start all of my range sessions with my carry gun. As I said, I also use it to compare guns and sights to each other. After I run it once I look at which stage I did the worst on and run that a couple more times.

 

[DadSmith]

7 yards is almost twice the norm for civil gun fights. Ask Mr Rittenhouse. get a timer and compare the 3x3x3 with iron vs dots. If you do not earn a significant improvement in score with the dot, then weigh the law of diminished returns to determine if it is worth the baggage and electronic fails to carry it. The shooting sports and range practice often are using target yardages way beyond true defensive distances. The longer the shot the more advantage a dot or scope gives you. So there’s that.

Right now the dot is more accurate but slower within 15 yards. Past 20yards to 50 yards its way more accurate and a lot faster than iron sights. At least for me. I need to work on 15 and closer with my dot. Right now it's not my carry. Using the Shield 45 or my 10mm 1911 until I am as fast with the dot as I am with iron sights.
It's a challenge but I think it will be worth it.

 

[Smitty117]

If anyone questions whether or not a dot will yield increased practical accuracy in a non defensive shooting activity, they should look to those who shoot Bullseye or NRA Precision Pistol. That sport while dwindling away is virtually dominated by red dots and has been for years.

 

[NyleRN]

If anyone questions whether or not a dot will yield increased practical accuracy in a non defensive shooting activity, they should look to those who shoot Bullseye or NRA Precision Pistol. That sport while dwindling away is virtually dominated by red dots and has been for years.

I think the main focus here is red dots on carry pistols. So increase in accuracy at 20-35 yards isn't really my main concern when an attack is more than likely going to be within feet

 

[Dean C.]

I think the main focus here is red dots on carry pistols. So increase in accuracy at 20-35 yards isn't really my main concern when an attack is more than likely going to be within feet

The Jack Wilson church shot changed my mind on that , Double Action Legion 226 from 45-47 feet and it was a headshot with 400~ people around , I know it's a crazy situation, but being in a shooting is already crazy anyways and the law of probability is apparently against you that day.

Lessons from a Texas Church Shooting - American Handgunner

A criminal opens fire in a church during a busy Sunday service. Fortunately, armed citizen security is in place.

americanhandgunner.com

 

[cbhausen]

The Jack Wilson church shot changed my mind on that , Double Action Legion 226 from 45-47 feet and it was a headshot with 400~ people around , I know it's a crazy situation, but being in a shooting is already crazy anyways and the law of probability is apparently against you that day.

Lessons from a Texas Church Shooting - American Handgunner

A criminal opens fire in a church during a busy Sunday service. Fortunately, armed citizen security is in place.

americanhandgunner.com

I’m a firm believer a red dot sight extends the practical range of a handgun. In a situation like the Jack Wilson church shooting, however rare, it is a game changer. I’ve proven this for myself at the range. From 15 to 20 yards on out, red dots rule iron sights. From 15 to 20 yards in, for me, at least the difference is negligible so far. But I have lots of training to do.

 

[danatkins]

While most encounters will be close I like what a friend of mine says. Figure out the farthest place in either your church or home that you sit from a door most times, you need to own everything from there to arms length. For me that's about I think 30 yards. Hence why my social pistol has a dot

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk

 

[Gunmetalgray]

Another variable to consider for carry or self defense is low-light or night time situations. The 507k does not have auto adjustment for brightness (the 507c does). The shake awake on both is nice. But pick up a 507k at night when the brightness setting is too high and see what happens. The bright reticle is blinding, makes anything beyond it more difficult to see, especially with the circle on. As noted the the 507C does auto adjust, however, the user selected value for brightness doesn't allow for the daylight default and low-light default to be set independently. The setting ends up being a compromise between being just bright enough for day and not too bright for night. Personally I wish the 507k had auto adjust like the 507c AND that the daylight & low-light defaults could be selected independently. Can't speak to how other models handle this, maybe others can chime in.

 

[danatkins]

I set my 509 to where it's nice and crisp in daylight and for dark when I fire up the wml it works perfectly

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk

 

[BE Mike]

If anyone questions whether or not a dot will yield increased practical accuracy in a non defensive shooting activity, they should look to those who shoot Bullseye or NRA Precision Pistol. That sport while dwindling away is virtually dominated by red dots and has been for years.

Completely different thing. No good comparison between bullseye and self-defense.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Completely different thing. No good comparison between bullseye and self-defense.

Agreed however, reaching Master in NRA Precision earns you a very good skill set in trigger control which has helped me with longer shots if ever needed in defense situation. It is why some do not need a long arm for any defense less than 75 targets.

 

[NyleRN]

The Jack Wilson church shot changed my mind on that , Double Action Legion 226 from 45-47 feet and it was a headshot with 400~ people around , I know it's a crazy situation, but being in a shooting is already crazy anyways and the law of probability is apparently against you that day.

Lessons from a Texas Church Shooting - American Handgunner

A criminal opens fire in a church during a busy Sunday service. Fortunately, armed citizen security is in place.

americanhandgunner.com

Sure, Murphy showed up that day. But Wilson wasn't directly attacked. A couple other guys were and it was within feet. Jack went to the fight. We can always go down another rabbit hole of whether or not you're going to engage a shooter that's not directly attacking you. I know in the church situation that was his "job" as being part of the security team. I'm still not sold on on a dot at 47ft which is about 15yds. No reason why after training and practice you can't hit an 6-8" plate at 15yd with using the front sight. I think we're trying to give too much credence to the red dot on carry guns. We finding outliers and using that as justification. Now comp shooting at distances out to 35+ yds? Yep
These are solely my opinions and not meant to start any arguments.

 

[Dean C.]

Right now the dot is more accurate but slower within 15 yards. Past 20yards to 50 yards its way more accurate and a lot faster than iron sights. At least for me. I need to work on 15 and closer with my dot. Right now it's not my carry. Using the Shield 45 or my 10mm 1911 until I am as fast with the dot as I am with iron sights.
It's a challenge but I think it will be worth it.

Because I am limited to shooting basically exclusively at an indoor range with rules unfortunately, I find failure drills a fun way to work on tracking and picking up the dot. The smaller window on the 507k is honestly not as hard to track as I thought it was going to be. I think that target was roughly 7 yards , again front sight distance but I am in it for the advantages with more precise shots.

 

[cedartop]

Another variable to consider for carry or self defense is low-light or night time situations. The 507k does not have auto adjustment for brightness (the 507c does). The shake awake on both is nice. But pick up a 507k at night when the brightness setting is too high and see what happens. The bright reticle is blinding, makes anything beyond it more difficult to see, especially with the circle on. As noted the the 507C does auto adjust, however, the user selected value for brightness doesn't allow for the daylight default and low-light default to be set independently. The setting ends up being a compromise between being just bright enough for day and not too bright for night. Personally I wish the 507k had auto adjust like the 507c AND that the daylight & low-light defaults could be selected independently. Can't speak to how other models handle this, maybe others can chime in.

As someone who has done low light training both with live fire and force on force I can tell you that an auto adjust dot is not always to your benefit. Especially if you are in a dark area looking out to a light area or using a weapon mounted light.

 

[cedartop]

Sure, Murphy showed up that day. But Wilson wasn't directly attacked. A couple other guys were and it was within feet. Jack went to the fight. We can always go down another rabbit hole of whether or not you're going to engage a shooter that's not directly attacking you. I know in the church situation that was his "job" as being part of the security team. I'm still not sold on on a dot at 47ft which is about 15yds. No reason why after training and practice you can't hit an 6-8" plate at 15yd with using the front sight. I think we're trying to give too much credence to the red dot on carry guns. We finding outliers and using that as justification. Now comp shooting at distances out to 35+ yds? Yep
These are solely my opinions and not meant to start any arguments.

The point isn't with training and practice can I make that shot with irons at 15 yd, Yes I can. The point is that I can do it a lot faster and more accurate with a dot gun. Again this doesn't mean that everybody has to choose that method. And yes, for me, those are the types of situations I prepare for.

 

[DadSmith]

Because I am limited to shooting basically exclusively at an indoor range with rules unfortunately, I find failure drills a fun way to work on tracking and picking up the dot. The smaller window on the 507k is honestly not as hard to track as I thought it was going to be. I think that target was roughly 7 yards , again front sight distance but I am in it for the advantages with more precise shots.

I picked up a new set of snap caps so I have 8 total now. I can load several mags with them mixed in. A few 9mm caps wore out so grabbed another pack.


Im.going to try the slide back with snap caps loaded in mag and dry fire and use that method at home.

 

[BE Mike]

Agreed however, reaching Master in NRA Precision earns you a very good skill set in trigger control which has helped me with longer shots if ever needed in defense situation. It is why some do not need a long arm for any defense less than 75 targets.

Yep basic marksmanship skills found in bullseye (Precision Pistol) carry over to other disciplines to a large degree, but one must still learn other skills, i.e. different trigger, drawing and firing or firing from a ready pistol position, getting shots off quick, etc. Over the past several years the emphasis on marksmanship fundamentals has been overlooked by many and shown actual distain by others.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Because I am limited to shooting basically exclusively at an indoor range with rules unfortunately, I find failure drills a fun way to work on tracking and picking up the dot. The smaller window on the 507k is honestly not as hard to track as I thought it was going to be. I think that target was roughly 7 yards , again front sight distance but I am in it for the advantages with more precise shots.

Yep basic marksmanship skills found in bullseye (Precision Pistol) carry over to other disciplines to a large degree, but one must still learn other skills, i.e. different trigger, drawing and firing or firing from a ready pistol position, getting shots off quick, etc. Over the past several years the emphasis on marksmanship fundamentals has been overlooked by many and shown actual distain by others.

Agreed, I constantly try to get the message across that there is a long vast of areas to obtain a skill set along with a lot of hard work to achieve before one needs trick triggers and accessories. Unfortunately, in this day and age of shortcuts, many give up putting in the work and try to outfit their way to Marksmanship. Sad.